Interviewee: Krishan Goyle

Interviewer: Amber Abbas

Transcriber: Alisha Cunzio

AA: (0:02)
Okay, so my name is Amber Abbas, and I am here interviewing Dr. Krishan Goyle on December 29, 2020. We're both in New York, but due to the Coronavirus Pandemic – Covid-19 Pandemic – we are in separate locations. I am in Brooklyn, and you are in…

KG: (00:24)
Manhattan.

AA: (00:26)
In Manhattan. And so, we'll be conducting the oral history interview today on Zoom at the request of your son, Raj Goyle, and also in the hopes that it can be added to the South Asian American Digital Archive for posterity. So I just wanted to confirm, before we go any further that I have your permission to make the recording.

KG: (00:52)
You do.

AA: (00:54)
Okay, and we'll do a full release form at the end. And we had a chance to speak- we're speaking now just after the December winter holidays, right before the New Year, and in the context of one of the most challenging years, I suspect. Least, certainly, that I can remember, but I will be interested to hear your perspective on that as well. And although we had- we spoke briefly a couple of weeks ago, I'm going to ask you a few questions again about your early life so that we can get a complete story, and then based on what I learned from that earlier interview, I have a lot more questions for you as well. So will you start out just telling me a little bit about when- tell me when you were born, and then a little bit about where you were born.

KG: (1:54)
I was born in a very small town. Obviously, soon after my birth, I was moved to another town, so I don't know too much, but as I've been told the place was called Naurang: N-A-U-R-A-N-G. It was a very, very tiny town. Population, probably no more than 52 hundred people altogether.

AA: (2:31)
Was that your mother's village? Was she with her parents when you were born?

KG: (2:37)
I truthfully couldn’t tell.

AA: (2:40)
Okay.

KG: (2:41)
Yeah. Must be. Must be. I’m just guessing.

AA: (2:47)
Okay. And then shortly after that, you shifted to Rama Mandi.

KG: (2:53)
That's correct.

AA: (2:55)
And both places are in Indian Punjab?

KG: (2:59)
Punjab.

AA: (3:00)
So were they mostly agricultural regions?

KG: (3:06)
I'm not… Naurang I understand was agricultural, but Rama Mandi was a kind of a business of different kinds. Buy and sell.

AA: (3:24)
And did you family have- what was the house that you lived in as a child like?

KG: (3:33)
It was very open. It was not truly mud and thatch, but probably close to that. Open—brick portion was very small. Mostly it was mud kind of – mud and wood. Very open field. And the cremation ground was very close, so it was just outside Rama Mandi. Yes, outskirts of Rama Mandi.

AA: (4:12)
Okay, and what did- Did your garden have a wall? Was there like a courtyard, or an aangan? Was it enclosed?

KG: (4:21)
There were walls, but the open field- it was an enclosed area. So if you have to do some celebration – I don't recall too many – but if there was, that will be in the middle part of there- that enclosed area.

AA: (4:44)
And did you have brothers and sisters?

KG: (4:47)
Yeah, I had one sister and two brothers. I'm the youngest in the family.

AA: (4:55)
You're the youngest. Okay. And tell me a little bit- Can you tell me the names of both of your parents?

KG: (5:04)
My father's name was Kundan Lan: K-U-N-D-A-N, middle was L-A-N. Last name Goel. They used a little differently from my name. I modified, so I did- To me, as I kind of got my education, I thought the flow was better. Goyle: G-O-Y-L-E. They’re all G-O-E-L, G-O-Y-E-L. It means the same thing.

AA: (5:39)
What does it mean?

KG: (5:43)
It’s a family name. They- the…. in Hindu culture, there were fire origination… Mankind was from the fire. So as it emanated, certain… slogans were chanted, and so they were called the last name meant by that. So, the Gupta, the Goyels, Bansals. They are about two dozens of them. It's a little complicated.

AA: (6:29)
Well, you mentioned— So, wait, that was your father's name. What was your mother's name, and then I'm going to come back.

KG: (6:35)
Mother, her first name was S-O-D-H-A-M. Sodham. Middle was Devie: D-E-V-I-E. But she’s adopted—that my father's name.

AA: (6:54)
And when you were growing up, you mentioned Hindu background or Hindu faith. Was that an important part of the lifestyle in your home when you were a child?

KG: (7:06)
Well, certain occasions they did certain ceremonies, which I didn't completely understand. But… my- both my parents, they used to go to certain temples with- mostly Hindu temples. So I used to go with them, and that's basically it. But I was very open, and I- my whole perspective changed, particularly at the time of partition.

AA: (7:42)
Well, and I had some questions about that. You must have been 12 or 13 years old when partition happened, so you have some memories of that time.

KG: (7:52)
I do. I do.

AA: (7:54)
Well, what was your- When you were in Rama Mandi you said your home was on the outskirts of the town. Who else lived in your home with you? Did you have older relatives also living there?

KG: (8:08)
No, no, it was my mother, my sister, and my older two brothers. And my brother, older brother, was married, and his wife, so that was… My father had a business in another town, which was a lot bigger. That town was called Bathinda. So he had his business there. He used to come over the weekends.

AA: (8:50)
And no grandparents were living there with you.

KG: (8:53)
No, no. My grandparents were deceased. I had no grandparents living when I was four.

AA: (9:00)
Oh, wow. Okay. And do you remember anything about the other houses that were nearby, or the other— Were there other families or other children that you would play with?

KG: (9:15)
No, no. Not really. But....[inaudible] alone.

AA: (9:21)
Because I'm trying to imagine how you think of the town or the neighborhood. Was it a place that was mostly Hindu, or Hindu and Sikh, or were there Muslims there also?

KG: (9:39)
It was predominantly Hindu. But there were Muslims, there were Sikhs. But it was very friendly, close knit. So religion was not—it never played in our minds. You practice whatever you like.

AA: (10:02)
But there was a temple that- Did you have a temple in your home also?

KG: (10:08)
No.

AA: (10:09)
No? No kind of, um—

KG: (10:11)
Later on, when my mother and my sister-in-law, they move-- my sister got married and she moved to her husband's town. But my mother, my sister-in-law, they moved to Bathinda. That was the last year of my matriculation - high school.

AA: (10:36)
Okay. And so, in Bathinda, things were- it was more of an urban center?

KG: (10:41)
Right, correct.

AA: (10:46)
Okay, so things were a little-- So tell me about, when you were a child, and you were born into British India, and how did things change for you when the country was partitioned? You were already in school.

KG: (11:03)
Right, I was in the middle school. I was about to graduate. So… in the… I was in the one more year to go in middle school. And so the-- it was World War II, I just-- The aeroplanes I had never seen, so they will fly and they'll fly very low, and we used to come out of the house just to witness the- see the aeroplanes. And they-- I didn't know anything. My mother – and they didn't have any formal education, but they were pretty smart – and she used to tell-- The yahoodees – the Jews were called yahoodees. That the- there’s a guy in Germany, he wanted to kill the yahoodees. And so, we used to just-- and then the partition occurred, and then the only attraction was the railway station. And so we used to go, and that is such a horrible, horrible scene. I just— it sends chills when I-- what I saw what was happening.

AA: (12:35)
So there were attacks on trains in Bathinda?

KG: (12:37)
Oh absolutely. The trains will come, and these-- the Sikh religion, there's a certain small sect of the Sikh religion called Akalis, and they used to have, in their turbans, several metal rings, and they could wear the arm, they can [inaudible]. And I recall, I saw the Akali – to come to his food – and there was a child thrown out of the train, and he step-- That child was like an infant. It was so bad-- And I-- we used to go in the compa- bogies of the train and saw dead bodies. Blood all over – it’s so terrible. So terrible.

AA: (13:30)
And did you have any sense of there being conflict or violence between different groups in the town?

KG: (13:40)
It happened. So that was-- I was in Rama Mandi at that time. And there were a few Muslim families, and one had a shop. I used to go there to buy my school things – notebooks, and the pens, ink. And he had his house in the outskirts, and that house was burned. He was burned, and his two daughters were converted to Hinduism. Forced to do that. And that's when I started formulating, in my mind, what worth is this religion? And I was told it is all riots in Gujarat, and everywhere, all over the country, mainly on the basis of their religion. People come in-- my brother, older brother, had a business in Karachi, and Karachi was the main hub – it’s a port, I understand – and he had his business there. And he-- when the things flared up, he was in Karachi. And when-- and we were just very, very scared whether he will come back alive or not. So he had his friends told him in Karachi – they were Muslims, and they were very nice to tell him – that do one thing: Muslims will drink water… it’s called surahi. Surahi is a kind of a…

AA: (15:28)
Of a vessel?

KG: (15:29)
Yeah, it’s a vessel. That you-- it’s made of clay, and the water remains cool. So it was summer, so temperature very high. So you just don’t take a sip from the same surahi. And so fortunately, we were very happy that he came out safe. There was a place called the Hindumalkot, which was the juncture between the border between India and Pakistan.

AA: (16:09)
So the thing about the surahi was don't drink from the same one?

KG: (16:14)
Everybody will come, and when they are thirsty—You got train, moving train, you can't get anything. There were no vendors in the train, but they kept the surahis. So you drink water from the same surahi – multiple people will drink from the same, they were not hygienic.

AA: (16:39)
And normally, would your family have observed any restrictions about like, pollution with Muslims? Like maybe you wouldn't drink from the same vessel as a Muslim before?

KG: (16:51)
I heard that Muslims won't do what the Hindus did. So, there were certain traditional differences, which really, I'd never pay too much. I was busy in my studies. I didn’t [inaudible].

AA: (17:13)
Yeah. Um, well, I know, a lot of the interviews that I've done for my own research have been with Muslims, who were – I mentioned to you – who had been in Aligarh, and some had migrated away. Many of them talked about trying to conceal their identity during partition, because they didn't want anyone to know that they were Muslim, and I'm wondering if that happened with your brother, that it was-- he was trying to conceal his identity so that he could be in a safe place.

KG: (17:49)
I mean, so, the morphology was such that they-- that you couldn't tell the difference by looking at the person. And one thing I came to know was-- the only thing is, for the men-- and the-- because in Hinduism, they didn't allow what they call… uh, what they call…

AA: (18:11)
Circumcision.

KG: (18:12)
Circumcision, thank you. Yeah, they didn't allow circumcision. So that was the only criteria used, which was so lame. There are certain things which are… [inaudible].

AA: (18:29)
So, in your village, you said there was this Muslim shopkeeper, and his family was burned, and his daughters were-- or his house was burnt, and his daughters-- Did what did you remember if other Muslims left from the village, and did any new people--

KG: (18:48)
People were flying, like for example, I heard that from Parkinson – the area which was declared Pakistan – people were coming the same trains, coming from Hindumal Kote, adjacent areas. There were dead bodies, then Hindus, but the trains leaving towards Lahore, because that was the closest city to us, and there were Muslims leaving for Pakistan – they were killed.

AA: (19:25)
And you told me, when we spoke the other day, that Lahore for you was the place you wanted to go.

KG: (19:33)
Three hours by train. Because train was the only route you could take, so the-- by train it was three hours from Firozpur. Firozpur was about 30 minutes from Bathinda.

AA: (19:51)
And you wanted to go there when you were boy.

KG: (19:54)
Because, before-- Delhi became popular after partition. It became the center. But previously in Punjab, and Punjab was the – it’s my understanding Punjab was a very dominant area in India. Now India. And the-- Lahore was educationally, commercially was very well known. So I wanted to go there.

AA: (20:29)
And you tried.

KG: (20:30)
I tried to walk. It was because, at home my mother, my sister-in-law, and my sister, we were the only people. So I started walking. I walked about, God knows, 10 miles or something like that? And the people they got very alerted that, “Where did he disappear?” And they sent people in searching for me, and they finally got hold of me. And they say. “You can’t go.” And they reprimanded me.

AA: (21:03)
What were you-- Do you remember what you were hoping to do when you got there?

KG: (21:08)
No, I just wanted to see the city.

AA: (21:13)
Yeah. How old were you?

KG: (21:15)
I was probably 10, 11.

AA: (21:20)
Okay. Yeah. And you told me a little bit about your childhood education, and that your brothers – your older brothers – had only maybe a primary school education. You said maybe about four or--

KG: (21:34)
Right, right, right. Elementary. But they learned-- There were Muslim teachers. They taught Urdu. My brothers, they knew – my father, my brothers – they could read, wright in Urdu. So they used to write letters to me in Urdu, so I learned very basic.

AA: (22:00)
So then, did you speak Punjabi at home?

KG: (22:04)
Oh yeah. Yeah. Mainly, we spoke Punjabi.

AA: (22:08)
But then you also learn to read and write Urdu, and then… and then Hindi?

KG: (22:15)
Then Hindi. Yeah. In middle school they taught English, Hindi, Punjabi.

AA: (22:28)
Which language do you consider your mother tongue?

KG: (22:32)
Punjabi.

AA: (23:33)
Punjabi.

KG: (23:34)
But don't challenge me on that.

AA: (22:41)
[laughing] Mujhe Punjabi nahin aathi [I don’t know Punjabi]

KG: (22:45)
That’s great!

AA: (22:50)
I speak very kachi [broken/raw/basic] Urdu, and kachi Hindi, but no Punjabi.

KG: (22:58)
For me now it’s the same thing. You can understand, but to speak I have to formulate my ideas.

AA: (23:09)
And you talked about your brother had a teacher who supported you. Can you tell me that story about--

KG: (23:18)
My brother… [inaudible]. He had a friend. It was a small place, everybody knew everybody. So the teacher, and the police officer, the doctor – only one doctor – and they know—they knew everybody. So my brother—older brother—was in politics. So he was the pardhan—like a mayor of the town, so he knew the teacher. So he talked to me that, “Will you coach my brother?” Because my father never put me in school. So he said yes. So that was arrangement which, I don't know, probably didn't cost much at that time. Or it could be a favor. So then he motivated me for my education. In the earliest years of my life, he was a prime mover in my life.

AA: (24:35)
And what was his name?

KG: (24:39)
Jegadeesh Rai.

AA: (24:42)
And did you ever keep in touch with him as you…?

KG: (24:45)
Well, he came to-- when I graduated from the high school. So he came one day to see me, and I was so surprised. It was very thrilling experience. So he came to my house. He was in a Rama Mandi, so he had moved to Bathinda. So I graduated from high school from Bathinda, and he came to see me. That was so gracious of him.

AA: (25:16)
And were you-- At that point were you able to share with him your plans? You were…

KG: (25:24)
Oh, um… I-- some of it. Despite the difficulty, still the lot of good things in the family. And their principles were never cheat, never lie, stay honest. Those principles were very strong. But they, financially, and some other-- very difficulties were there. But one thing that I always wanted to get the education. I wanted to be a scientist, I wanted to be a doctor. And…

AA: (26:05)
So, you said there was one doctor only in Rama Mandi. And you-- Tell me about why science was so exciting and appealing to you.

KG: (26:18)
The one good thing in the family – they used to get together. My cousins, my brother, my father – when they'll come, they'll get together and they chat. And during the chats, I heard ‘the sciences doing great’. And, I say, they probably didn't have any experience – they didn't have any education – but they read the newspaper in which used to be in Punjabi and Urdu. And so they read-- they used to talk science had done so many wonder or something. So that was-- I just barely heard those stories, so that was clicking in mind. So I had nothing to do with the business. I just wanted to get the education, and wanted to be the science.

AA: (27:19)
And your brothers supported you?

KG: (27:22)
Yeah, my brother got me the spot in the sense that my-- he got me connected to my teacher. So, but financially, it didn't cost me much in… the middle school, after middle school. And that was free. And the high school there were… it was-- I stayed in the hotel – boarding house. And the boarding house… the school was free for me. They didn't charge any tuition. And because of the middle school grades, they came out handy. So the-- but for-- I had to pay for my meals. So I-- there used to be, in the paper, there was like a Kappy Dale, Moby Dick, kind of. You write little stories, and they gave you a few rupees, so that was one. And students who were not doing that well, so you help them. So a couple of them they were gracious enough to, if you-- So that took care of meals part.

AA: (28:47)
So you-- are you saying you wrote-- you sold your writing to the newspaper?

KG: (28:52)
Yeah. Well…. Like, it was a small story you write, and you send it to the newspaper. If it is accepted they'll give you a few rupees.

AA: (29:06)
That's very industrious of you.

KG: (29:09)
Well, I was… hard working, because [inaudible]. I was motivated.

AA: (29:18)
And the other students must have appreciated your help.

KG: (29:23)
I mean, so, those who [inaudible] In the high school I did well. My teachers liked me, too.

AA: (29:34)
Yeah. When you were living in the boarding house, did you see your family very often?

KG: (29:39)
When they moved to Bathinda. I was about to graduate. It was two months before that, then I often then went to my house.

AA: (29:53)
You talked about living mostly at home with your mother and your sister, and your Father was mostly away. How would you say-- Which one of your parents had a bigger impression on who you came to be, do you think?

KG: (30:11)
Bulk of my time I spent with my mother growing up. I didn't know much about my father's business, because travel in India was not that easy. Train was the only route, and we had to buy the ticket. So yeah, but [inaudible].

AA: (30:37)
What was your mother like?

KG: (30:42)
She was a homemaker. Very quiet. In India, in those times, men dominated and they… Quiet, always doing something – cooking, sewing.

AA: (31:02)
Was she a good cook? Did you like her food?

KG: (31:07)
There were no hotels, and there’s no eating out. It was all home cooked food till I got into the boarding house.

AA: (31:17)
Was there any special thing that she used to make just for you?

KG: (31:23)
For me?

AA: (31:26)
I guess special sweet or something that you loved?

KG: (31:28)
Yeah, when you condense milk, you make some barfi, petal thicker. So I used to love sweets, and she will make only so much, and would put on the top shelf. I couldn't reach there, and I find some stool from somewhere. I used to climb.

AA: (31:58)
She knew the way to your heart. And so, you went to the boarding school. And did you have a sense that getting an education was something you were doing for yourself, or something that you were doing for your family?

KG: (32:23)
Truthfully, both. It was mainly I wanted to get educated, I wanted to accomplish something. And a reason I wanted to get married – I read about Madame Curie. They got Nobel Prize, both a husband and wife. So it was a weird dream, but yeah I wanted to get married, and maybe we can do something. It was never-- I didn’t have the intellect. I was obviously [inaudible]. But those ideas, when you're growing up, you don't know anything in definite terms. But uh…

AA: (33:20)
And that's why you wanted to do research.

KG: (33:23)
I wanted to be a researcher, that’s true. If I would have gone, because spending time in India – military, villages, and then post-graduation. So it took time. And so, by that time, so I had a choice. Though, if I would have been very determined, it would have been at the sacrifice of the family. Because the kids – we had two sons – Raj and his older brother. [inaudible]

AA: (34:10)
So I'm gonna stay a little bit on the chronology, and we'll come back to your work. Because you told me that while you were in medical school – you went to medical school in Patiala—and while you were in medical school you were also doing work in villages. Can you tell me about that?

KG: (34:30)
Yeah, I took time off because I could. And in the villages there were no doctors, and they need. So if you had two years training you go and work, so I did that.

AA: (34:47)
And that was in the 1950s?

KG: (34:50)
Right, right.

AA: (34:51)
So what were the conditions like in the villages where you were?

KG: (34:57)
If you can describe hell on the planet.

AA: (35:01)
Really?

KG: (35:03)
There was one place I was posted – Pratapghar, in Rajasthan. I went to-- initially I went to some villages in Punjab, then because Rajasthan, and they gave you gusted post, because it is relatively in the newspaper, and relatively prestigious position, and they pay a little bit more salary wise. So Partapur – that that was a ton of maybe 1000, little bit hilly. You had to drive 50 miles to buy salt or sugar. There was not even a single house – there were no exception – which didn't have at least one or more cases of TB.

AA: (36:16)
Did that-- Did you fear for your own health and safety?

KG: (36:22)
No, I never did. I felt ‘I'm strong’ and things will have to work out. Yeah, I that's one thing, and I don't know how to explain, but even today, honestly things have to work out. It’s God’s way – things cannot-- If you are neat, clean, if you do things, and you work hard, what's the reason? God is not that cruel. God is never cruel. But yeah... So that's the instinct I have.

AA: (37:02)
Well I was thinking about that. To start a conversation, and you come from the tiny village, and then you live through the partition, and then you're working in villages with TB. How do you compare the 2020 pandemic to those other experiences?

KG: (37:21)
To me, it seems like every so many years something ugly other happens. That's nature. That's reality. There is TB, plague, SARS, Ebola, influenza, COVID. Bad things will keep happening. The wars, diseases. This, I think, no matter what we do.

AA: (37:54)
You have a long perspective.

KG: (37:58)
Longer, right. I think so far it has helped.

AA: (38:04)
Yeah. And so after the-- working in the villages, you decided, once you finished your medical school, not to go back to the villages, and you chose to go to the army.

KG: (38:20)
Right

AA: (38:23)
Can you tell me--

KG: (38:24)
There was a strong opposition from the family.

AA: (38:29)
Why?

KG: (38:31)
Because nobody has ever been in the army from my side of the family.

AA: (38:37)
But it would have been pretty common in Punjab for people to go to the army, but not in your family.

KG: (38:47)
Not in our family.

AA: (38:51)
Tell me about your experience in the army. How was your army service different than your village service?

KG: (38:57)
It's totally, totally different. Apples and oranges. It’s just-- one time, because I was more studious type of person, and there you get up at four o'clock, and go for the military training. All the time, rifle shooting. It was crawling in the mud, barbed wire, which was totally-- So I told them, “I'm quitting.” And commanding officer he came, “You can do it.” You can do it. So, I just-- I said, “I'm not going.” And then he came in. He said, “It’s just a temporary. It’s part of it. Then you’ll go to the military hospitals – it’s all medical, and it's out of the field, so don't worry about it.” So I just understood and went along, completed my training, then I hired – my initial position was in Hyderabad, then armed forces medical schools. That was very good school as a matter of fact.

AA: (40:21)
Your initial posting was in Hyderabad Dhakkan?

KG: (40:25)
Yeah, Hyderabad. Now it's in India. Yeah, it was dhakkan.

AA: (40:32)
Okay. So that's a long way from Punjab.

KG: (40:37)
Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Right. Because Punjab is in northern part of India, and Hyderabad is south – deep south.

AA: (40:51)
So the culture must have been very different for you. Did you experience that?

KG: (40:54)
Everything was different. Everything was different. They dress differently, they eat-- they ate differently, but now is everything cosmopolitan. Okay. Things have changed dramatically – dramatically.

AA: (41:10)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so when were you in Hyderabad?

KG: (41:17)
’63. 60… yeah, January ‘64.

AA: (41:23)
Okay. All right. And then after your posting in Hyderabad, you told you told me that you were back-- you were in Kashmir during the war.

KG: (41:31)
Right. So one year as you-- it was three months military training, three months was it—again, because there are more emphasis on tropical diseases, diseases which are related to military. So, you have to spend three months in AFMC Pune. So, after completing that, then you are assigned posting. For one year, I was in Madhya Pradesh, India. And then, after one year of that, I was posted in that… near the… what they call- near Kashmir. That’s it. Last time I stayed was in Kashmir.

AA: (42:23)
It's so—this-- your story… You moved so many times. From the very beginning of your birth, you only stayed there for a short period of time, and then you move again and again and again.

KG: (42:39)
It was no end. In United States, I moved to my practice, because we did fellowship at Cleveland Clinic, and my-- the colleague, he was from Argentina, and his wife was-- family was in Argentina, and my wife was doing residency in OB-GYN. So we get to know each other well. So he decided to go to Kansas, I came to Pennsylvania, I didn't care for that place very much. So we were in touch frequently. He said, “Why don't you come here?” I said, “I need two positions, for me and my wife.” He said, “Not a problem.” So that's the maximum time of my life I spent at that place. Otherwise, every two years, three years. Constant move.

AA: (43:42)
Did it feel good finally to settle down?

KG: (43:45)
It does. It does, yeah.

AA: (43:50)
And what do you think you learned from all that moving and all that traveling?

KG: (43:59)
Life is wonderful. It’s full of experiences. I'm glad in a way that I get to see. I saw from primitive medicine to the latest advances, and from primitive village to living in New York.

AA: (44:28)
That’s a big range.

KG: (44:31)
And from in the partition experience – never want to go through that ever again. And religion has taught me something – that is all they want. What good is the religion where people have to kill each other? They have to hate each other? Doesn't make one bit of sense. So it’s lot of learning, and as you go along, no matter what, you're always learning. Always learning. It's never complete. I'm glad to be able to experience for myself.

AA: (45:22)
I want to know about this big move from India to the US. But first I want you to tell me about meeting your wife.

KG: (45:37)
I was in military, I was posted in place called Kargil – is close to Ladakh Leh. And so, and then that place is important both for Pakistan and India, because strategically whosoever has control can look downside what the other side is doing. Yeah, so it was under control of India at that time. We were posted. So I got a-- there used-- communication was mainly-- because letters used to take months to reach those areas, so telegram relatively arrived early, and so I got a telegram that my brother was-- had a heart attack. So I requested my commanding officer to if I could go and visit my family – my brother. So they arranged the helicopter for me to take the plane to go to Chandigarh, from Chandigarh to Bathinda. So, I arrived there. Some-- my brother had mild heart attack, so he was stable, he was doing well. And then my parents started pressurizing me to get married. And I had only one week, so that's how. I said, “Find a physician.” And so, I had, vaguely – because I was leaving the medical school, she was entering the medical school – so might have vaguely, but we didn't have any connection.

AA: (47:42)
Yeah. But you knew you wanted to marry a doctor so you could be the Nobel Prize team.

KG: (47:54)
[laughs] Yeah. That is it. Well, what could I say.

AA: (48:00)
There's still time.

KG: (48:07)
Well, I’m hopeful. And never ever lose hope. Just continue working.

AA: (48:11)
Yeah.

KG: (48:13)
You never know what [inaudible]. You can't imagine.

AA: (48:18)
Well, and I admire so much that you knew you wanted to have a wife-- you wanted to marry a woman who would be a companion for you as a scientist and a scholar, which was pretty unusual, I imagine, in the place where you grew up.

KG: (48:40)
That’s true.

AA: (48:42)
Even now, you know, women are told not to get too much education, because a man doesn't want a woman with too much education.

KG: (48:52)
Oh, I’ve seen that. I've seen my sister-in-law – had to keep her face covered all the time. She could not shake – neither my mom – they couldn't shake hands with another man.

AA: (49:11)
Yeah. And so, when you had the opportunity to apply to come for residency in the US was Dr. Vimal also interested in that?

KG: (49:26)
Um, no, as a matter of fact, it was funny in that it— She was doing MD in OB-GYN, I was doing in medicine. And I started applying, and so Institute-- All India Institute of Medical Sciences, good reputation. The passing grade it will be- you have to be really not good enough to do really bad. So I was-- although there was no certainty. But I was about to finish my exams – were 15-- some fifth of May. So I had my return, and then the orals. So, results are given right away. So I knew I passed, and my wife was a day later, and she passed. So once you do your post-graduation, generally you do registrarship to get anywhere. Professor level. So she was called-- I was determined I didn’t want to do any registrarship, because that time, in the villages, in the military, doing post-graduation – all those years, I wanted to get back to the United States as quickly as I could. As a matter of fact, I had made reservation, and I had applied, and they didn't care whether I did the MD or MdDS, they were-- they needed-- They were taking people for residency, even after MdDS. So I could apply. So I applied to different places. So I was in New York, a couple of places, Minnesota, and Rochester, New York. So I got the application, I filled out those application, and got the acceptance – acceptance whenever I applied. And then, when I got the results, as a matter of fact, people do wait to see the good hospitals were for. So I didn't want to wait, and my wife was told by her professor, “Why don't you do this first?” And she was very edgy. “Why don't we stay here?” I say, “You stay if you want, I’m going. My ticket, my flight is reserved. I'm leaving.” And when we went home after a few – we had a couple of weeks, and we went home – my parents were-- my family, they were opposed, because they didn’t want me to leave, and her side of the family they were opposed. They wanted us to start practice there. So I said, “Listen, nothing of that. I have to go.” So she never usually, whatever. So…

AA: (53:02)
She-- you went with-- and you were both qualified.

KG: (53:05)
Yeah. Right. But she-- I had taken the exam and I-- one day I was going to Madhya Pradesh, where my job was in the military. I said, “Why don't I take this exam?” Called ECFMG, for the foreign medical graduates. So I took that exam, and I passed. So, but she didn't take the ECFMG at that time, so she came with me. She took it after she arrived.

AA: (53:38)
Okay. And how do you think your departure affected your family?

KG: (53:44)
My father was… didn't take it well. But the rest of the family accepted.

AA: (53:56)
What does that mean, he didn't take it well?

KG: (53:59)
He was very nervous. He was… just… he had to be consoled.

AA: (54:08)
How did you communicate with them after you reached Rochester?

KG: (54:13)
It was very difficult, because on the phone it will take several hours to get the call connected. And when it was connection was-- when it was connected, connection was so poor. You could hardly say “hello, hello, hello”. The connection was terrible. Things have dramatically changed. And it costs a lot.

AA: (54:41)
Did you write letters?

KG: (54:44)
I was not a big letter writer. My brother used to write to me in Urdu. And my Urdu was also fading.

AA: (55:00)
And did you support your family financially? I mean, you talked earlier about, even as a young man, you worked to help pay your own fees and pay for the meals and school.

KG: (55:13)
Well, the one thing they taught me that ‘we don't need your money, but stay honest’. Because, in the villages I heard doctors that they take bribes. I was cautioned against that. I practiced that to the best of my [inaudible]. I never did. So they never-- But I, on my own, sometimes I did.

AA: (55:49)
And how often did you return after you came to US?

KG: (55:59)
I came in 1970. I went back, the first time, in ‘77. And then it was 17 years after that.

AA: (56:17)
17?

KG: (56:18)
17.

AA: (56:19)
Wow. What changed in your family in those many years?

KG: (56:33)
My brother deceased. My parents, deceased… First time when I went, my older brother had deceased. But second time, when I went after 17 years, my-- both my parents.

AA: (57:06)
That must have been very hard. And, in that same time, your children were born?

KG: (57:19)
Right? My oldest son was two years old when he moved to United States. Raj was born here. And they didn't know anything.

AA: (57:35)
Do you… do you feel like you gave up a lot with your choice to come? Or did you gain a lot from your choice to come?

KG: (57:52)
Well… I, as a matter, giving up in the terms of the—we, my nephews nieces, they are still living. They're very intimate. So that part is good. But, I didn't stay at one place more than three years at a time. So that-- I… that was it. But still, because-- particularly my mother, it was still very difficult. That was the loss I would say. But as for the gaining – education wise, experience wise – that's a net gain.

AA: (58:52)
I've been thinking a lot this year – so many people are struggling with social distancing, and I’ve been thinking of your story that you spent so much time distant from your own family.

KG: (59:12)
Yes, 17 years is a long time.

AA: (59:17)
A long time. And I know that, you know, Raj talked about how exciting it was for him to go back to India after he finished his university. So how did you, in that long gap, Wow did you share your experience with your children?

KG: (59:42)
Well, they this respected me. So kind of them, they respected me a lot, because I was the first one to graduate from college. I was the first one to become a doctor. I was the first one to go to military. I was the first one to come to United States. And all of that didn't come easy, in the sense there was opposition of my going to military, coming to United States. Great opposition. But I was determined – I had to do it. And subsequently, they appreciate. And they had a great regard, both Raj and Sanj. So every time we go they adore us.

AA: (1:00:53)
And do- Have your sons been able to maintain a relationship with their family in India?

KG: (1:01:02)
Yeah, they do. They do.

AA: (1:01:06)
It's certainly easier now with What'sApp, and…

KG: (1:01:11)
It’s a lot easier to communicate, to travel.

AA: (1:01:18)
When you first went back to India, was – when your older brother passed away – what did it feel like to be back there? Do you remember?

KG: (1:01:32)
He was very, very nice – kind hearted. Didn't have the education, had problems with the alcohol, but he was- he'll come to anybody's help as much as he could. So I miss him a lot.

AA: (1:01:57)
Tell me a little bit about settling in Wichita. Because you were there for a very long time.

KG: (1:02:06)
Very long time. Longest of my life.

AA: (1:02:10)
And you were the first Indian cardiologist in Wichita – that’s another one of your first. But how did you experience that?

KG: (1:02:30)
It was a community that family could be very safely. Schools were good, and practice of medicine was decent, and the people were pretty open. So a lot of things were on-site training. Like, for example, ultrasound, [inaudible], intervention, cardiology. Those things were not when I finished my fellowship. So we had to continue to train ourselves. So I went for courses, and did certain periods of training to get those accomplishments. So people were open. There was comrade, but as the years went by it didn't remain the same. There was a lot of politics. I'm a die-hard democrat, and Wichita is a diehard republican state. So that didn't jive well at all. And politics, discrimination started keeping.

AA: (1:04:11)
Yeah, I wondered about that. If-- were there other South Asian Americans there, or other people from outside of the US?

KG: (1:04:26)
Some families, but not the physicians. Physician, there were a couple of in our group. I tried to get them when they came off.

AA: (1:04:45)
So how do you think your role in the profession – and you were talking about it changing over time – how did your role in the profession or in the city change over time? You also-- you had a lot of firsts there. You oversaw the care for the first heart transplant. It seems like your profile was quite high, but also, it changed.

KG: (1:05:12)
Yeah, in the hospital the practice preferences, committee decision making. Yes. There were discriminatory practices.

AA: (1:05:31)
Do you think that things were changing? Like, after 9/11, for instance, or.. did things change-- Did that seem to cause the change?

KG: (1:05:45)
No. Wichita, some other there, was attractive for medical practice, for some reason or the other. When I went over there there were only five cardiologists. Five – me, my partner from Argentina, and there were three others. There were 5 of us. When I left that place there were 62. So I- as a matter of fact, before me there was another. The other-- the senior cardiologist, he used to go to smaller towns where he was born, or the area in there, so… So I decided—there were a couple of Indian doctors there, in smaller towns. They needed consultation, because they didn't have easy reach to the cardiology, and the cardiology practices. People keep having heart attacks, for whatever reason. So I-- they invited me to come to the [inaudible], so I started visiting those places. So for many years it went well, so I could bring a lot of patients from the other hospital. But they never kind of acknowledge that fact. Hospitals were benefiting a lot, and the… but it was-- you were always considered as an outsider. That one thing bothered me, besides the politics of it.

AA: (1:07:54)
So, because you were Indian, you felt that you were always considered an outsider.

KG: (1:07:59)
That's right. They treated the-- Subsequently a couple of Indians came. And, as a matter of fact, more of the other groups struggled, so it was apparent.

AA: (1:08:17)
I read in the article about, when you closed your practice, that there was another-- a man who said all of the Asians came to him.

KG: (1:08:30)
Yeah, the Vietnam population was strong in Wichita. And they – the one guy, he was, I think, 14 years old or something – and he was blue. I mean, his lips were blue, his breathing was hard, and when I took the x-ray his heart was touching from one side to the other, it was so enlarged. So, and when I listen to him, he had multivalvular disease due to rheumatic fever. So I… I thought he may not make it during the catheterization. I did. He had severe aortic valve disease, metabolic disease, tricuspid valve disease. So we had to replace all the valves, and I thought… so I called the surgeons, I said, “Listen, we have to replace.” So he told me he can replace two valves, and he thought he will not make it, so let's try. And so we did the [inaudible] we replaced-- And that guy, he – it was in November ’89, and I left in 2013 – so he was-- his family, the Vietnamese population, they were very loyal to us, because I had outreach clinics.

AA: (1:10:06)
Was it important to you to have a role in Asian American community?

KG: (1:10:15)
Well, I wanted to be a doctor. I want to help regardless. But the people, those who didn't have much means – like, sometimes they… whatever the fee schedule was, they couldn't afford – I didn’t care. It didn't matter to me. I always have the concept that you never chase the money, money should come to you. And we have been fortunate. I'm… I will say in India, from pennies to here the amount – limit is sky. So I-- it has never-- I say, “Raj, get good education. Sanj, get good education.” And our style of living is reasonable. I'm never a person to lay on the beach. It’s-- That's not my style. But, it's good. It has worked out well.

AA: (1:11:26)
Um, you talk the other-- you said that you had wanted your sons to be doctors.

KG: (1:11:34)
Right. Sanj was very clear from the beginning. He went to Duke, and he called me – he went to biology class, and he called me that night and said, “Dad, I don't want to disappoint you, but I don't want to do medicine.” I said, “What happened?” He said, “I went to biology class, everybody was very interested. I was not one bit interested. So I don't want to do it.” I said, “Do whatever you want to do.” So he was-- has a personality, he was business and law, suits him better. That was him. Raj was a very, very good student. He was top of class year after year. So he… I took him to cath lab one day, and the patient needed angioplasty. At that time, there were no stands, so I did the balloon dilatation of the blocked artery. So he saw that, and he was very impressed. He said, “I’ll go to medical school. I’m going to be a doctor.” And then when he came to do, God knows what he changed, or changed his mind. He took LSAT instead of MCAT, and he did well in LSAT. So that's surprising. But anyway, I said, “Whatever you want.” So once he came out of the law school, he wanted to do MD. I said, “Make up your mind.” I mean, just MD, JD. [inaudible] Some people do it, but whatever you want to do, but make sure you stick to it.

AA: (1:13:41)
I was often told, when I was in India, there are many paths to the top of the mountain, but you have to pick one and stay on it.

KG: (1:13:50)
[laughing] Absolutely. Right.

AA: (1:13:57)
And they both-- So both of your sons took different paths than what you expected for them.

KG: (1:14:05)
Right.

AA: (1:14:06)
Like you took a different path from what your parents expected from you. But there-- they also moved away.

KG: (1:14:17)
Right.

AA: (1:14:18)
How did you feel when they moved away?

KG: (1:14:26)
It was difficult. But I knew it was short lived.

AA: (1:14:36)
And now you've come to them. Or you've at least come to New York, to where Raj is living. So tell me about your move to New York.

KG: (1:14:48)
Wichita was getting a little… over time, politics… the way I felt about the situation in the hospitals. So I wanted to move from Michigan, and they both – my older son wanted us to go to California, and Raj wanted us to come to New York. They say, “You make up your mind. You keep telling us you don't like Wichita anymore. So we'll get you moved.” To me, I mean, I built the house thinking that was my last stay. No more move. And the practice, we built the office building, and it was an established practice. So they say, “We’ll get it all taken care.” And Raj-- I must-- I can't pay him back. He did a tremendous job. He did it. So… office closing-- the office, I said to sell the building, they sell the house here. He did everything. He said, “You just come and move.” And he stayed there for two weeks, and no electricity, because we had to close everything, and so he stayed in that house, and that work, getting things packed, and he did a tremendous job.

AA: (1:16:35)
So you've also raised a hard worker.

KG: (1:16:38)
He's out of work, no question.

AA: (1:16:42)
And so how-- What was it like having-- You'd had a long career and a reputation in Kansas, then you came to New York, and how-- what was it like for you to adjust to working in new hospitals, new practice?

KG: (1:17:03)
I was used to a different kind of a practice. You had the independency. Here, it was kind of a military regime. You go, and you're on a pay chart. It was totally different. It took me a while. But the adjustment, that was not a problem. I could live in most difficult situations, because of the military background. Three days you lie in a bunker with only sugar powders, and bottle of water. There’s no shower, boots on. It’s just simply from that to officers mess. So that taught me a lot. So that was not the difficult part. The difficult part was hospital practice. Was kind of difficult, but you get acclimated.

AA: (1:18:11)
What are you-- Tell me about the happiest times in your life?

KG: (1:18:27)
Truthfully, I don't believe in those things. But my growing up, certain things. There's a place called Amanat, in the Himalayas. It's about 12,000 plus feet, height. And in the month of August there's a festival. People from all over the India, they walk to Kashmir-- Srinagar. From Srinagar it’s 29 miles height, and you have to walk. You cannot take the walk, obviously, in one day. You have to break it down a few miles every day, so it takes about a week to get there. So we-- I decided to take that journey to go to Amanat. And so I followed the procession, followed their schedule. But coming back you could come down at your own pace. So that day, you have to take a shower-- or dip in the river – as they call, the Little Ganges – before you climb another four miles to the... They saying is that there's a piece of ice between the two walls in that corner, and that piece of ice waxes and wanes according to the waxing and waning of the moon. So if you do that, whatever you wish, it will come to you. So I did that, and you won't believe it. So I wish three things. I wanted to get married to a doctor. I wanted to get a gold medal. I wanted to come to the United States. True. Believe it or not, and three things came true. All three.

AA: (1:20:44)
Wow.

KG: (1:20:51)
All three things. And that's why still, and it’s mysterious thing. God, mystery, whatever it is. So, but that single thing was [inaudible].

AA: (1:21:08)
And that shaped everything. With all of the moving that you've done, where is home for you?

KG: (1:21:28)
Truthfully, even to this date, there's no home for me. Wherever it-- and it comes to an end, that will… I never. But I have been praying energy. Enough is enough. I can stay at one place. In Wichita, we built that house, I thought I did no more move. And that is the longest period of my

AA: (1:22:09)
Where… where will you… Where would you like your ashes?

KG: (1:22:22)
It really doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t matter. Family, traditionally, to take to the Haridwar. There’s a place called—is the Ganges. So that's the tradition, but for me it doesn’t matter. There’s one universe, there’s one God, it's just… But things will keep happening. That’s God’s style.

AA: (1:22:57)
I know that's a hard question to answer, but you started your story by telling me that your home was next to the cremation grounds, in Rama Mandi. And you told me that when Raj went to India he went to the birth places, and to the burial places. So when I think about a whole life--

KG: (1:23:22)
My family house in [CITY].

AA: (1:23:29)
And the river is always in motion.

KG: (1:23:33)
That’s right. That’s right – absolutely. Yes it is.

AA: (1:23:40)
So, what do you think is the most important thing for me to understand about your story?

KG: (1:23:51)
There will always be difficulties. Take it as it comes. Don’t be too celebratory, and don't get too discouraged. Keep going on. Keep the principles honesty, decency, dignity. Under new circumstances, keep those principles. Work as hard as you can, and don't change the results. Let that be wherever the chips fall, then you take it. Take it, and keep going.

AA: (1:24:39)
Do you have a message for your grandchildren?

KG: (1:24:43)
Same message. Decency, honesty… hard work. Never compromise. Intelligence is a God given thing, and results you don't control. But you can definitely modify what you do.

AA: (1:25:14)
I think those are important lessons for this moment, too. They’re lifelong lessons, but once we can stand to learn again and again.

KG: (1:25:25)
And never… it's never-- Repetition, not enough.

AA: (1:25:34)
I'm so grateful to you for sharing your story. You tell your story very beautifully.

KG: (1:25:42)
Thank you. Thank. Thank you so much.

AA: (1:25:47)
I'm so glad to have gotten to know you.

KG: (1:25:51)
Thank you, thank you. Likewise. Thank you very much.

AA: (1:25:56)
Um, and I may come back again, ask a few more questions. And I also would love to be able to speak to Dr. Vimal and hear her story as well.

KG: (1:26:12)
Sure. Sure.

AA: (1:26:14)
I'll reach out to her. But thank you so much for your openness, and for sharing your life with me.

KG: (1:26:28)
Everybody has [inaudible].

Additional Clip
Krishan Goyle (KG) 0:01
Then I was posted in Dras, Kargil. You are given at night...because the winter period so gets very, very tall. So, you can’t see them, so you have to go in and grope...and you are given the password of that night. So, every night they give you a different password. So one night we were attacked by Pakistan. Then one shelters everywhere...and I crawled to the front door which was improvised. It was an underground bunker. The commanding officer was yelling “Where is the doctor? Where is the doctor?” And I told him I’m me [the doctor]. He said go to the bunker on the left. So I crawled there and they pointed out the guns to me [and] say “What is today's password?” And I forgot my password. I standed there for a few minutes and finally one of the guys in the bunker recognized my voice. I started jumping...definitely a sigh of relief. I stayed in that bunker for three hours till the sunlight showed up a little bit.

Amber Abbas (AA) (1:27)
It must have been terrifying.

KG (1:31)
What do you do? You’re telling “I forgot, I forgot!”

AA (1:41)
Thankfully you had good friends.

KG (1:44)
Thankfully…

AA (1:50)
Oh, it’s a good one to end with a good laugh. Well, thank you so much and I will look forward to being in touch soon.

KG (2:01)
Sure, goodbye.

AA (2:03)
Okay, bye bye.