Divya Aikat
Hello, my name is Divya Aikat. Today's date is July 10, 2023. I'm located in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in the USA. And I'm here today with Christina Huang, who is my friend and co-member of our Students for Asian American Studies group at UNC. Christina, could you please introduce yourself and give a little bit of background?

Christina Huang
Yeah. Hi, my name is Christina Huang. I am from northern New Jersey, and I am a current rising sophomore at UNC and alongside many other Asian American activists like Divya, we helped form Students for Asian American Studies at UNC, which is an organization that's pushing to get a minor for Asian American Studies.

Divya Aikat
Awesome, thank you. And could you tell me a little bit more about your first year at UNC? And maybe how Asian American Studies has played a role in that and in your life in general?

Christina Huang
Yeah. So I think I've had a very fortunate first year at UNC. I think coming out of COVID and also being a first generation student, I didn't really know what to expect at UNC. Especially being at a state school, there were a lot of opportunities and amazing people at other students and classmates at UNC that I got to bond with and create a lot of good connections and work on really cool projects like SAAS [Students for Asian American Studies]. And I think my Asian identity didn't really play... I wasn't very conscious of its influence, or I didn't really want to pay attention to my Asian identity until recently. I think it was something I was always very embarrassed about. And it wasn't until recently that, I think senior year of high school that I really started wanting to learn more and getting involved in Asian American activism.

Divya Aikat
Yeah. Could you kind of walk me through... you're part of the group Students for Asian American Studies at UNC? When did you realize that this was necessary? And what pushed your investment in this work?
Christina Huang

Oh, okay. I think one thing that I noticed is that a lot of students, especially when they come from predominantly white communities and there's a lot of limits to what they're taught in the classroom, they don't really know what resources are available to them in higher education. And so I think I knew that I really wanted to be in this Asian American higher education activism spheres when I came to campus. Luckily, I was able to find the Asian American Center, which is one of the first in the Southeast. It is very tiny, a homely shack, but it really does serve as a place for community and to talk about Asian American identity and feel at home in such a big place, especially since I come from the North to the South. It's still that familiarity that I feel when I enter the Asian American Center. And so speaking to a lot of, a few of my mentors at UNC, including Dr. Krupal Amin. She was the one who brought up the Asian American studies program and how it's a thing and it's not here at UNC. And it was took me a time to realize that that's really surprising because UNC is the oldest public institutions in the country. And looking into the archives, there's probably like three or four boxes maximum, organized dedicated to Asian Americans at UNC. And we only now can best estimate who the first Asian Americans were at UNC, which is surprising because you would think that there would be more. And so I think that's where it really started and took off, where it's like, this is something we realized that students shouldn't have to advocate... you come to campus, you're here to learn, not to advocate. And to my surprise, it's a 30 plus year movement, that people have been calling this for ages. And I think it's not like we're suddenly starting this movement and doing it all ourselves. There are amazing activists before us that started the work and we're just picking up where they stopped.

Divya Aikat
Totally, those are great points. So you kind of, with this program, you started this push from the ground up, like you said, you were in these original meetings. And now, it's come a long way. We've collected over 900 signatures on our petition. Can you walk me through the process of your student advocacy and kind of how this movement built its momentum?

Christina Huang
Yeah, I think it's because it's been rolling and we are in a time I feel of like Asian American Studies not just in in higher education but also K-12. And I think the foremost important thing with any grassroots organization that I think is so important is the community. I think that starting an organization, starting a mission, I think, a big part of... what took me a while to understand especially because coming out of high school and college entering the process of a lot of people trying to start their own organization, they have these huge dreams. But at least what I found is a lot of students can't like follow through on them. And I think it's because you don't have the manpower or the consistency or not building that community first. I think I wouldn't have done this, if I didn't find that Students for Asian American Studies, we shortened to SAAS. If it didn't have that community where we felt that we could rely on each other. Or if it was just like, one figurehead and everyone's following what they're doing... I don't think it would have worked out. But I think we're so close. We're friends first, and then members and activists second. And these are truly some of the most incredible people I've worked with. I think after building that initially, then we were able to sit down with all of our mentors and get different advice about... okay step two, what do we do? And I think we looked at the different programs that were happening, that were started and ongoing throughout the country, and specifically at Duke because they just got their minor in 2018. But relatively recently, and we followed the structure of their petition. And we took what they had and kind of spent a few months drafting. And I think because there's such brilliant people in our organization, including Divya, we combined all our efforts together to make a really thorough list of demands, including not just the minor, but also we talked about expanding the Center to make it accessible to getting more faculty on campus. And so we have a few demands. And then we pushed our demands out. And it was incredible, because the first day we pushed it out, we were like, Okay, maybe 100, 200 signatures. And we got like 300, nearly 400 signatures just in day one. And we're near 900 now, trying to hit that 1000 mark. And we met with department chairs, we met with staff, we met with students, student organizations, we worked with our Asian American Student Association to host events to bring more awareness. And I think it's, once again, engaging the community. It's not just about -- here is me as an individual, or here's us as an organization. It's about gauging what the community wants, what do student organizations want, what do alumni want? Engaging with faculty and saying, Oh, this is what the faculty are feeling. And because it encompasses what we've heard, from students and faculty in the community, I think we were able to share with our petition, and it's been going for so long to the point, it's like everybody was sharing it with each other. And we were able to meet with our Dean of College of Arts and Sciences and the Dean of the Global and Social Sciences. And we sat them down, and we gave them a presentation, a PowerPoint, and as well, handing them physical copies of our petition and kind of ran through everything, like the timeline, who are our supporters, who's watching. And a big thing that I thought was incredible was that we got national support, like we have people signing on from Harvard, Duke, Northeastern, Williams, Texas, some UC schools. So it was not just like here's our small community and the students, but it's like the whole nation is watching and is going to hold you accountable. And we also are now planning events for the fall. Yeah.

Divya Aikat
That's really amazing. And that's very cool to hear about the strong community support and all of that. Who... Did you face any -- separate from all of the strong positive responses and people that were able to support us -- did you feel that there was specific points of resistance that we faced? And how did you kind of deal with that?

Christina Huang
Yeah, I think, especially at a public school, one of the biggest thing is asking for any sort of funding, because it was like oh, this money can go elsewhere. It’s more important that we have like a Shakespearean, or some sort of... or going to department chairs, and being like, oh, but you should go to Asian Studies, we're like, but Asian Studies and Asian American Studies are really different. And we kept pushing that this has to be housed in American Studies. Because Asian Americans are Americans. And I think as students, I don't think we should be the ones coming up with funding, it should definitely come through the institution itself. And I think because we only have four years here, it's really hard, because we have to make sure that there's a part of us knowing that it might not happen while we're here. But how do we keep it sustainable, so that the institution just doesn't put us off because our Latino and Latina minor program, they had the same problem because they were out waited for so long, they kind of just pushed them aside. They'd say that students want this and kind of pushed them [aside] and say there's also other things that have to be looked at. So trying to stay consistent, and trying to stay on the forefront of things and being like we matter, right? And we belong here. And we also have an education that we deserve. And I think for me, what's also felt at times I struggle with... is, so because we didn't have a program at UNC, I looked at Duke, which had a minor and so [in my freshmen spring semester] I went twice a week, bussed 30 minutes there and 30 minutes back [sometimes more with traffic and transitions] just for like a 75 minute class. So that was already four or five hours chunk out of my day each week. And so I was like, this is incredible. What I learned in my class was… I learned so much. And I had an epiphany in that class, I was like, wow, this is a whole new way to view Asian American Studies. And learning about the tensions and the historical context, it really changed my perspective on how to talk about Asian American studies. But because of the time restraints and a lot of institutional issues of getting my class on to my transcript, it was very difficult. And I kept thinking about one, it's very hard for students that don't have these programs to get access, even if they're like near institutions. And secondly, I could be taking these classes and learning these incredible things and learning, but my time is spent being an advocate. And now there's a struggle of students who have programs to them, they don't have to fight for this, and they are getting the education that they are paying for. But I'm paying to fight for something that doesn't even exist that I will profit from, which I'm fine with, I'm kind of like it's gonna help in the long term... And I'm okay with that. But also I also need to focus on my career, and I can't dedicate all my time just for this program.

Divya Aikat 13:37
Kind of just generally adding on to that in our Students for Asian American Studies group, we always really praise you as being this kind of like, fearless leader... you're always putting yourself... putting others first and doing all of this work, which can really be draining and really not have any short term rewards. And I feel like that really holds true to your spirit and passion for the cause. And it's one thing to kind of be fearless and just do something and it's another to really face... have that fear and have that pushback and we don't know if this is going to happen and still do that anyways. And I think you do that all the time. Like you're talking about taking the bus to Duke, you started this at UNC, you gathered all of us and despite all of these pushbacks, what would you say... How do you keep going? What drives you with this sort of organizing and activism work and generally inspires you to keep moving forward?

Christina Huang
I think what I really love about this activism space is that everybody... I can't take credit for everything that I've been doing. I think I've been having so much support. And also I'm able to give so much support and seeing people get engaged and contribute and learning from these people. It just, I feel like I'm learning so much. And being able to sit down and talk and Divya, being able to sit here and speaking with you. And being able to like learn from you has been truly like, so eye opening. And I think, knowing that in the long run, this is gonna benefit so many students. I think that keeps me going. I think there's... I think it's so sweet that you said all those things. And I'm like fumbling over my words, because, but...

Divya Aikat
Take your time

Christina Huang
I don't think like... you can't be a leader or you can't do any kind of a project if the people you work with... if they're not amazing, and they aren't incredible, and they hold up their end and they contribute as a team. Then you can't function. And I think the person who is making the decision is as important as everyone else that's contributing, I think their just role is different. I think that's something I always found in the organizing sphere is that sometimes some of the best leaders that I've met are ones that... they're not always the- the spotlight is not always on them. But they're the behind the scenes, supporting the rest of the roles. And I think that's so important in organizing. I have been so lucky to meet people like that... one person that I, that I really love too... Kani Ilangovan she works in the K-12 Asian American Studies, making sure that it's going to go into K-12. When you're looking at media and stuff like that, she's not really the forefront of things, but she is the backbone of everything that's happening. She is supporting everyone with their initiatives. And I truly think that's so powerful, and seeing communities form, especially being in Philly and seeing right now, the community that, it's so welcoming, and it's so warming inside. And that's the type of community I think you get for such initiatives

Divya Aikat
Totally. And kind of focusing on the community aspect and the sustainability of these types of movements... We, in our group, and at UNC, we talk a lot about the gendered side of this activism work. And all of us in our group are not... We don't have a man in our group. And so generally, how do you feel that being a woman of color has guided your lens about these issues and changed your experience for this push at UNC?

Christina Huang
I feel like the gendered lens is so interesting to look at. I think one thing that definitely impacted me growing up in my identity. I'm 4'10". So I'm very short, and I'm very tiny. So it kind of impacts my like view, because everybody kind of looks down on you. I've had experiences where I'm doing something and they're like, oh, why don't you let your brother do this? Or why don't you let the man do it? And so it's definitely impacted a little bit of how I perceive myself and how I've carried myself. It was always like, Oh, knowing that because women, especially in traditional Asian cultures, because I'm Chinese, Chinese culture is like, women are seen as more submissive. But I think that definitely feeling that I couldn't be at the forefront of things. I think it's definitely empowering because I have struggles with my Asian identity, and know how I perceived myself and how I presented myself in predominantly white communities. And now doing what I'm doing. And our organization being all non-men, I definitely think it's really interesting because we are very uplifting of each other. And I want to say it's the way that we understand ourselves and we're able to talk about the gendered experience also connects ourselves about how we're perceived as women and as women of color, I always feel like we're always taught to put others before us. So I think... I grew up with a younger brother. And so I can also see certain experiences that he doesn't have to be told that you have to cook and clean and you have these chores and duties as a woman to do and you have to be the child bearer and all those things that you're... when you're that young I feel like it's a little traumatizing to hear. But there's also the lens of when you are a man here, I think it's also harder to get in these activism spheres too, because there's also a push to be like, I guess, to be like the breadwinner and make money. And I think they're also very driven into the like, other spaces. And one thing that we have a lot of conversation is, how do we get more men into these spaces and make them feel comfortable, and they can talk about, I think we had an event at UNC, and we had a student who is a man. And he was talking about his experiences, getting into the activism space. And he also talked about things about like learning to put other people, other marginalized voices in front of him and his experience learning about that. And I think that was very impactful to hear, especially now working at SAADA which is predominantly about South Asian Americans, I think it's so important that we also fit and try to talk and look at our privileges and be like, Okay, I have like these privileges, and to talk about how to uplift people, not always be the one speaking. And I think that's another thing I noticed about the gendered lens is especially, because I just focus more on United States, but in the US, it tends that women are the ones that are community builders. And it's… one thing very powerful. But another thing is that women at a young age, or like a lot of like initiatives are women-led. And so... I think in China, there's a huge movement against like, and it's, I forget what it's... I forget the name off the top of my head. But it has to do a lot with advocating for civil and human rights, and it's going in tandem with the women's rights movement there too, as well. And so in the United States, I think looking at different movements are also led a lot by women. And on one end it's very empowering. But on the other end, I feel like it's a responsibility and duty, which is not always fair, because women don't always want that responsibility. I have to explain to someone or I have to be the one to you know, lecture someone, mother someone, or take on initiative. When you have... when you have a lot of responsibilities already. A lot of the times, I think when I was studying at Duke and I went into the archives, one thing I noticed was like how Asian American women were kind of forced to the present their culture in a certain way. So there were like... I was reading like newspaper articles about how Asian American women dressed up in their traditional dresses, and they describe these dresses as exotic and the food that they were serving is erotic and all these weird terms. And it was like, I don't think that that is empowering. I think you're forced into a space and you're given a label and some sort of identity that you have to fit under in order to be here. And I think as well as a lot of people during that time weren't comfortable with these, getting involved in these different organizations that were doing that. So it was empowering, to not be at the forefront of the... these events and these initiatives. And I think about that a lot about our organization with SAAS about how do we make sure that we uphold these ideas of exoticism or Orientalism? Yeah.

Divya Aikat
Totally. So you made some really good points, Christina, about the intersections of the Asian space and communities that may lack representation, along with ways that you could have been left out of the conversation or extra roles that you've had to take on. So my next question is, could you share with us about your upbringing, elaborate a little bit more on that and how it might influence your identity?

Christina Huang
I think intersectionality is so important. It plays... because we know I've talked about my Asian American side, I've talked about my gendered side, and all those other parts of my identity. And I think a big reason why programs like Asian American Studies programs are so important is that it forces students to think about this identity that they probably never really think about...It's just like a thing on the side, you know, celebrate your holidays, but then having documents to study, getting to study a class, and learning about the history and stuff like that, it makes you think critically, and I think it really changes your outlook on things. It changes who you befriend and think your passions are. In high school, I kind of went down that “Good Asian Child” arc where you're like, I'm going to be a doctor, like I knew deep down inside, I was like, I don't have what it takes to be a doctor. [laughter] I don't have the work ethic to be do all of that down the road. But I feel like that was the only thing presented to me at the time, it's like, it's either continue my family's business, and I didn't want to, like take on the my dad’s little family business, and I didn't really have much exposure to anything else. And the only thing I really saw was like, go be a doctor. And so... I think in my, one of my classes, it was my APUSH class. And I had an Asian American woman, she was my like...I had one or two Asian American teachers before, and I've always felt like I was always closer to them, and I got along better, I just didn't realize it till retrospectively, and... And I think I felt a lot safer just sitting there after class, and just talking to her about things related to my Asian American identity, and things not related to my Asian American identity. And she's really the one who got me going in this, I guess, this activism and Asian American Studies stuff. And I would not be here talking to you right now if it wasn't for her. She got me into politics, learning about history, and just one person can make such a big impact. And students should be having these conversations in middle and high school... but luckily, I had that in the middle of my high school, and then also getting... having Asian American mentors in high school and college has been also very helpful. And it's I kind of see my life in different chunks. And definitely like, the one where I was trying to… I wanted to be perceived as white or some sort of like assimilated version of myself. And then I have me who, I'm more embracing it and trying to incorporate it into how I think about things and the things I read about and other things like that. And... and I think it's not just looking not just about myself, but beyond other things, too. I think being on UNC campus, a lot of Asian American organizations or sororities and fraternities [structures] are based on Black organizations, what they did if they took inspiration, of course, credit these black organizations and leaders what they do, because that's so important. But and I think that's a lot of our work that we do too, because we've spoken with different... I know I've spoken with the Indigenous Studies program at UNC and talked about how they got to be incorporated to the program and the struggles that they had on campus because there was a time where they were trying to remove their entire program, which is crazy to think about from UNC. And we also speak with a lot of the... work with Black professors at UNC because the African and African American Diaspora Studies program at UNC is amazing. Like it's, they have amazing archives. They have incredible professors. Yeah. And so a lot of our work is taking inspiration, like they've done so well in what they've done. And we're like this is a space that we need too, like we definitely know what our differences are... Like we don't want to be like Asian and Asian American diaspora, but we definitely feel like that we work alongside each other as different racial and ethnic groups, not as like... not as like one because there's a whole issue of like multiculturalism and forcing all the like all the ethnic groups altogether, but kind of working in tandem with each other to build each other up. And I think that's so important, especially right now, in terms of where we are. I think there is a lot of anti Blackness in the Asian American community that needs to be talked about. And working right now, with the Affirmative Action group at UNC. That's a big conversation that I that I work with and try to tackle about. I think there's a long history of tensions between different minority groups, specifically like Asian and Black Americans. But I think like, trying to build up like multiracial solidarity and trying to build up movement, and also it's so incredible, and I think I also really appreciate the program they've put in there. And I think it's also an inspiration where I take on, like specifically, I remember the NAACP chapter at UNC did a colorism webinar thing. And I was like, in the Asian and Asian American community, we don't talk about colorism really at all. And it's something that needs to be talked about. So, I think it's like... topics like that, that we need in the classroom that we need at higher education, talk about these hierarchies that are missing right now, which is crazy to think about, because it's like it's something that I feel like should just be there. Like, it shouldn't be like, we shouldn't be having conversation of why don't we have it? It should have conversations about…let's talk about these topics, and how do we further the conversation? But yeah, I think that, first of all, intersectionality is so important. And, on top of that, like multiracial solidarity is so important.

Divya Aikat
Totally, no, those are really good points that you make about our, our inspiration for our work at UNC does come a lot from the work that other ethnic studies groups have put in, and everything that they've been doing, I wanted to circle back a little bit to the points that you were making about the different sections of your life and talking about your Asian American mentors in high school. And I just wanted to ask a little bit... you've been involved in this movement for Asian American Studies and supporting the Asian American community since before you even came to UNC, which I think is very unique to have been involved in high school and all of that. So could you tell me a little bit more about the different roles that you've had? And maybe how they've shaped your experience now?

Christina Huang
Yeah. So I think I was involved with an initiative to pass a bill that would mandate Asian American studies to K-12. And when we passed it, it was the second ever... Jersey was the second ever state to get it passed. I think that played a pivotal role and being like, Okay, this is something that needs to be here. And throughout in higher education, too. Because you can only talk about so much in the classroom because social studies program and there's a lot that teachers can do, but it's also very limiting. I think that it's something that higher education should have. And I think one thing that I've always being at UNC now, I was like... I was like wow, California, the West Coast has so much. And then the East Coast has a little bit but being in the South at UNC, there's like nothing. And I remember we had one conversation where some- and this happens actually in a lot of conversations, where people will be like, "Hey, for some reason, I don't feel like I'm Southern enough." There was this one conversation, Divya, that we had. And it was talking about like I do all these Southern things, yet I will... I will never fit in just because of my ethnicity. And that really struck me too, because one of my friends also said that he was like I was born and raised in the South. But there's no literature that really encompasses my experience here. Because I like my sweet ice teas like I grew up here, but like, there's no understanding of what it means to have- because I feel like being Southern is a very American thing, like you go around the world it's something else. But that that tends to come in conflict with the Asian identity, which is like you're a perpetual foreigner. And so those two identities collide. but I'm hoping that the work that we're doing at UNC really shines a light on that more... about there are people with tractors, they own farms, they grew up here, like in the South, and there's communities that have been there for ages. In the South, most of them [Asians] that came were international students in like the 60s or 70s. And they ended up staying. There were a lot of Asian American groups, that's before, but that's when the huge growth of community started coming. And so we don't really have good documentations of these communities. And so to circle back, because I got a little off track about the role that I played, I think, being a student advocate... At the time, I think it really was empowering, because it was a time during the rise of anti-Asian hate. And this is also the time that I also didn't realize that was... I don't know if this like, counts as a hate crime... it's too- hate crime is too strong of a word... But I was at a supermarket and someone took off their mask and started coughing at me, and I had no clue. I was like, that's weird. And then I didn't realize, until like, I was sitting at the rally, we had like a rally and I was speaking there. And they were like, this happened to me... And I was like, "That happened to me!" Like I had an aha moment. Like, I was like, That happened to me. But I was like, because we don't talk about it- we didn't have like, you know, that conversation. I just threw it off. Like it was just someone being weird. But it also like kind of threw me off because I know that I'm smaller. And I look like a little kid- I can sometimes I often sometimes pass off as like 13 or 14, or even younger, like sometimes when I was in high school it was like, maybe you're 10 or 11. But like, I was also carrying like one of those Costco, like, Squishmallows too. So I definitely looked like I was young. And so someone to take off and kind of like,

Divya Aikat
Yeah, I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Christina Huang
I think in the moment, I think I didn't know what was happening. So it was like, oh okay, this is what's happening. But then that's when... that's when I was like, this is so important to have these programs and talk about... because a lot of students don't know that these things happen. And... yeah, and so getting involved in that really, like, spurred the things that I do now... that I was like we- there needs to be conversations, there needs to be involvement. One thing that I think that Asian American studies program- like learning from this movement now... that I was initially like... that I was a part of and continue to be a part of is that... implementation is so important, you can pass a bill and that's really... that's great and it's amazing. But it's the way you implement the bill that is so important. And I take this into account, when we try to talk about implementation at UNC, it cannot uphold colorism, it can't uphold anti-Blackness, it can't uphold systems of like white supremacy and other issues like that. Because if you're just- there's no point.... I would not want a K-12 program, and I would not want a program at a higher education system if it's going to be used like a political pawn to uphold the model minority myth and to put down… I think one thing that happens a lot in these programs is that we tend to highlight the successes of East Asians and we don't talk about South Asian Americans or Southeast Asian Americans. And a lot of times people even don't know that there's a difference between South Asian and Southeast Asian, they're just like, Oh, they're the same thing. But there's a huge difference. So like, I think... and I think that is so important too. Who are the professors that you're getting... because if it's someone that's sitting there that's being like I'll tell you why affirmative action sucks and if they're saying that kind of things, then you don't want that type of program. And I think that's my biggest take- one of my biggest takeaways from my previous work is that- and it also scares me too, because I know by the time we implement this program, we're gone. So we have no influence over what happens and if it just happens to fall into the wrong hands, it can either, someone doesn't really care about it too much, or it falls into the hands of administrators. And they... intentionally or not intentionally, like it's just complete accident, do these things that will harm students and put out ideas or ideologies that will harm the Asian American community as a whole.

Divya Aikat
Yeah, those are really excellent points you're making... because I feel that in a lot of our conversations, there's this idea of, oh, there's a box that needs to be checked off, like we want this done. And that's maybe the... the certain administrative viewpoints of it. But it's really about the implementation process and having it be implemented in a way that actually sustains the community and the students. So I really, really liked that point. And going back to your point about how important the educational space is, could you talk a little bit more about why your passion for this Asian American activism often falls within the educational sphere and how having Asian American studies can be beneficial for the larger community, both whether you want to talk about K-12, or higher education.

Christina Huang
I think it's said a lot, but education really does reform, how... like, it really does shine a light. Because I- there's- I think what the hardest thing for me for the longest time, I'm gonna admit now, it’s really hard to admit when you're wrong. But being in a space where I'm like, Oh, maybe the way I thought about it was not the best way to think about it... And the educational space is definitely a time to be like okay, you can be wrong, you can test out ideas. And I think these classes are so very transformative about the way it thinks about stuff. And... I think I also learn a lot from- especially from you and our other- and some other members of our group. Specifically, Abbey... they were talking- you and Abbey both talk a lot about like, the caste system in more depth than I really understand. I learned a little bit in school, but I never really understood it in depth. But I remember this one instance, where Abbey, they were telling me about how there was a place in New Jersey that was using forced labor to build a New Jersey temple [Hindu temple in Robbinsville, New Jersey]. And they were being paid like $1 per hour. And I didn't even know this exists. And it was like, it was kind of in the news but not really. And I feel like it kind of opens your eyes to different perspectives and different issues and different communities that you kind of just... I guess I was never exposed to. And I know I should try to actively search for these things. But I think I'm very grateful to be in a space where people are gonna share and try to teach me different things. And I think... oh I kind of strayed away from the main point, but-

Divya Aikat
No no no, that was perfect.

Christina Huang
Yeah... Oh, last thing, another thing was, I think I really want to highlight that I think what I learned was that your voice matters. And you can have a huge impact. I feel like one thing that happens a lot with organizations in the news is they tend to like hyper fixate on one person and try to make it like, they kind of make one person like a hero that did this... And people don't feel kind of attached to that but I can never be like that, you know? But when listen to these different stories... And you realize that it's more of like an organizational kind of a whole movement. I feel like that's like, oh, I can do something too. So I really like... hope to push as many students that like... what you do will make an impact, you can start an initiative, you can get involved because you will... you are so important and everything you do and contribute has value.

Divya Aikat 44:37
Totally, I think that's really important within education that we have those spaces and... the ability to discuss maybe harder topics. Just kind of relating back to your work with SAAS, Students for Asian American Studies... And just generally, I just wanted to ask, what would you say has worked for you in your activism work and what hasn't? Because there are these largely nameless and faceless institutions. And... so just if you've had- found any strategies to operate around them, and organize around them?

Christina Huang
I think one thing that is really important when you're doing this organizational work is you have to know your institution. Every institution is different, you got to know who's making the decisions... and it definitely is like, you got to throw yourself out there, because you'll be pointed in different directions all the time. They're like go start to talk to different departments. So what we did is that we went from the bottom up, because we realized this has to be a bottom up initiative that we first did- okay, we will work with this, you know, we organized within organizations of students, then we targeted each department. Because at least how it works at UNC, I'm not sure if other institutions, but the departments can put in requests for different hires. And so our strategy was that, Okay, if the departments are forwarding this to their, I guess the colleges and their bosses and they see that there's this huge movement towards Asian American Studies, then then they'll be more likely to push for Asian American Studies. And so, you kind of have- what we did if we had to do like, individually, like we reached out to 10 different departments. Well, we reached out to a lot of departments, but we only met with 10. So it was a lot of hours and hours of writing, drafting letters, responding... making sure people can get to those meetings, making sure we had two people at those meetings, and someone had to document everything that they said. And then from there, they also give us to other people too. They're like, oh, there's this initiative, or that they saw someone doing something similar, you should speak to someone there. And so I think learning this system of like, what is the hierarchy? Who is in the control of each department, because I feel like so many students- you're like, oh, the departments have all power to do what they want are these certain administrators have all powers, but you sit down, some of the things they can do is so limited. But also, I think another point is, I think a lot of times, sometimes... administrators, I think we just gotta keep pushing them, you gotta keep bothering your professors, you gotta keep pushing the departments because they don't really always have something to gain. We had someone in the Neuroscience department that was Asian American, she was lovely to speak with. She was like- we sat down and she was like, you don't even give me the spiel, I'm Asian American, I get it, tell me what I need to report back, I will get you what you need. So having like representation was like, amazing and not have to like waste like a- like 10, 15 minutes being like, "Asian Americans matter!" which is crazy in itself to have to explain but so being able to sit down and have- talk to different department chairs, different professors. If I was to break it down, if someone wanted to take the same steps we did. So we did the petition, we finished the petition, we met with department chairs. And also in our email to like CC as many people as we could, because there's a lot of eyes on here like so we talked to department, we talked to deans, and then we also pushed for organization signatures. We pushed for... we are in the process of asking professors to send in their signatures onto our petition or to email the department so there's like more pressure on that end. I think also hosting events are an amazing idea to bring more spotlight, collaborating with other organizations, also powerful things. Getting allyship, not just in the Asian American community, but all around the different organizations and pitching like, this is why this can help you, or this is how we can help you. This is how you can help us and this is how we can help you. So it's kinda like building like some sort of network. Um, but yeah, to answer your question.

Divya Aikat
Yeah, those are great points, I think operating within the hierarchies and trying to figure out the most... You gave some really good strategic tips on how to go about things and who to talk to. Do you have any emotional tips for people who are starting this work for the first time who are thinking about how to deal with the stress, the possible lack of fulfillment that this work may bring. Do you have any other sides to that?

Christina Huang
Oh, I think something we also talk about, Divya, is how we get burnout a lot. And this is something I like talk about so much is like, especially with the overturning of affirmative action, it makes us kind of scared because a lot of things on campus are student-led, student-driven, like our Asian American Center, created by Asian American students... they pushed so hard for that. And it shouldn't be students advocating for it because I feel like it should be administrators being like this is our student body, and to create initiatives that reflect our student body. And so now students... trying to figure out their identity, balancing their social life so they enjoy college. They're working because college is expensive. They're focusing on their academic career, they're doing internships, they're balancing so much all at once. And then activism comes in and it's like, any time that you thought you had for yourself, it's eaten away as soon as my weekends are.. I feel like- there used to be days where I just had meetings, meetings, meetings, like I was focused more on activism than I did my actual academics, which is kind of bad. And that's something that I've been reflecting on, because I have to build my like,- I'm not gonna be at UNC forever, and I can't just be [only] doing activism work. I have to really figure out like, what classes I want to take, how am I gonna get my degree? Like, I'm graduating in three years, I'm just taking silly little like English classes and stuff like that, which I enjoy. I really do enjoy. But, I think, again, I think a lot of our mentors also say this too. But one of them, Dr. Amin that I brought up previously, I think she has been so inspirational. To me, I think a lot of us... because she sets hard boundaries. She's like, I'm working these hours, and I'm not answering anything after weekends, or for me I'm spending time for my my kids and or myself. And I was on call with her the other day and she was showing me like her Pinterest-esque things that she was working on. I was like, that's so cool. I need to do things like that, too. I need to take that stuff for myself. And yeah, take time for myself and build up my own interests and hobbies that aren't with these stressful things. Like I love building community and I love activism. But there's also space that like... that I need for me. And I think another thing I really wanted to say was, Divya and I, we both went to the racial melancholy event. And that transformed how I saw a lot of things... like the whole thing- So Dr. Han wrote a book. And it was really addressing like Asian Americans, and the grief that they have to go through. And one of the lines, she says, you have to grieve your parents and like, they went through so much. But you have to let that go. Because you need to live your life for yourself, stop living for like, living for the expectations, because in the long run, this is what they would really want for you like and, and it was so powerful. I was like, Yeah, I got to stop being trying to be like this golden child to do everything because I feel like that's the Asian experience of doing the- everything at once. It was such like, I was almost moved to tears. I was like, that is so powerful. Like, she's spoken with students who she said was the perfect like, ideal, like Asian student where they're at top universities, like these incredible programs, but they're not happy because they're doing- they're not doing things that make them happy. And it was such a good like, I walked out and I felt like a relief off my shoulders. I was like, I'm gonna live my life for me. I want to do what I want and what makes me happy. And again, it's another example of why Asian American programs are so important because although we don't have a program, we have a center. You have conversations like those, you can read literature that's similar to that and have that conversation- have space to have those conversations. And it's also another idea of pushing for an initiative to hold spaces like that if you're pushing for a studies program, because it just builds community. But I think mental health, especially in the Asian American community... because I think that's all we see with our parents growing up like they- my parents are blue-collar workers. So it's... they work sunrise to sunset. Like it's always doing something... if it's not like running around the house doing chores, or looking after their kids, it has to do with the family business. And it's like... you have to disconnect yourself from it because it's like, I'm not going to uphold that for myself, I'm not gonna uphold that for anyone around me because it's not healthy. And it's so- I think it's so hard to set boundaries. I feel like it's so easy to over- I feel like cause you should like work hard, pick yourself up by the bootstraps, but I think it's so much harder to let go and not work.

Divya Aikat
Totally. Yeah, just to give a little bit more background, Christina's talking about psychotherapist, Dr. Shinhee Han came and visited UNC, and gave a lecture on her book, Racial Melancholia, Racial Dissociation. And I wanted to ask you a question about that. In the lecture, she talked about how a lot of Asian American students and children growing up in the community have to- these are the words she put it in, is they have to learn how to connect their "large emaciated head back to their body" and learn how to have- exist outside spaces of academics and actually learn how to be in the community and feel these feelings of joy and contribute. And one thing that she focuses on are places where people can play, and getting out of the model minority myth of constantly working and constantly doing all these things. How do we, how do we learn how to play? How do we learn how to enjoy ourselves? So I wanted to ask you, if you've found any places of... outside of all of this activism work, and all of the million roles that you take on. Have you found places of play and places of joy?

Christina Huang
That's a good question. I feel like- thank you for giving more on the lecture. I don't know how it's- much extent to give to it. But I feel like that's very thorough, very helpful. Yeah, I love the idea of playing because it reminds me of times of innocence when you could just enjoy life or like there was- you didn't have to have like, a deemed purpose, or this is what I'm gonna serve as a person here. And I've been trying to find that space of this space is for me, but it's really difficult to because like, I just feel like I'm always constantly trying to do more. And I feel like that's something I've worked on. I cut down my academic schedule for this following fall. I was like, no more than 13 or 14 hours, I did that. And I was like I'm trying to really find something that I'm so passionate about. Because I've heard like, I'm working with a PhD student right now. And she, she's doing amazing archival research and oral history research at UNC. And she has this whole spreadsheet of like ice cream flavors that she's going through. I was that's so cool. And Divya, you're telling me about like your animal collection and your flower collection that you have, I want to do something like that- it seems like so much fun. And it makes your life so much more exciting, because like when we were walking- Divya and I, when we were walking to like the farmers market, and there were these gorgeous flowers. And you're I feel like a lot of times you pick up on details that I don't and I think that's something that you kind of pick up when you're collecting little trophies and souvenirs is to like enjoy nature and observe your environment around you. And so that's something I've been thinking... what do I really like? And what kind of things can I- like a little cool little hobby that I can take on. But yeah, that was such a good lecture. And I think, I hope more Asian Americans, especially I think students of color, should definitely listen to that, or just academics of color should definitely listen to that to read and think about this idea of play.

Divya Aikat
Yeah, totally. You make some really good points. I think it's really hard to have been conditioned into this mindset of- you have to work and you have to operate around this meritocracy, and then kind of to deconstruct it in your own head and your own practice. So that's inspiring to hear. I have a couple more questions to ask you about, kind of, the bigger picture of Asian American studies. So to start off, zooming out a little bit, what does it mean to you to be part of this Asian American Studies movement as a whole?

Christina Huang
I think it's really cool. I think it's like larger than my brain can handle. Because I've always like in the moment- checked off my to do list and moving on and on. But really, and I don't know if I like to think about it because it gets me. Oh my god thinking about like 20 years in the future... What does this look like and it's going to impact to me. I felt like the right thing to do. Like it just- it's missing. It needs to be done. And I think about... I think about the Third World Liberation Front and activists that were pushing for Ethnic Studies in California, and it makes me excited, it's like they did so much in their stuff. And like this is- I feel like this is like the second round, like it's coming around again. And we're like, oh, maybe generalizing everything into like one, like just one ethnic studies, maybe that's like, we can do this better. Like that, or there's like different ways we can do this. And so it's really interesting from like a historical perspective, because I love like looking at history. And like, I don't know, being part of this archival research is really cool. And I hope that.. my biggest goal is to loop in as many people as I can, because I am enjoying so much of my time here at SAADA. And... just a little quick I guess, promotion for SAADA, I don't know, because it's such a great organization. And because of the Asian American program, or a lack of one... has brought you and I here and I get to learn from all the people at the office, especially like Danbi and Sreedevi especially being like strong figures and women of color, and Asian American women. I'm learning so much on like how to present myself. And you can be like more feminine, but also very professional, because I always separated the two- I was like, I can't be like cute and feminine and professional. It was seeing them do it so well and how they were respectful that was a little thing that I really respect. And seeing also how Samip is a leader figure, but also doesn't like isn't controlling at all. And also we have Yousef and Ed who are also amazing contributers, and I love speaking to them both, and I'm getting to know them really well. Because this is off topic, but I got to ask Ed about like cake flavors like it's just like the environment that- that we're setting up already. And trying to reflect that in like, what kind of community, what kind of work environment are we going to be setting... in a studies program, but beyond. Like, how do we take what we've learned in the studies program and apply it to different organizations and office work and into the workforce?

Divya Aikat
Yeah, I thought that those were really great points that you made about the interpersonal aspect, because we talk about this larger Asian American Studies movement across the country. But when you get down into the smaller spaces, and these activism spaces, the person-to-person dynamics and the connection and the community is really what ends up fueling the work. and what ends up as you highlighted so much in your talk about SAAS and about the various mentors you found... It's what keeps you coming back, and keeps you wanting to continue this activism. So I just thought that that was a really great point that you made.

Christina Huang
Thank you for articulating it better. Yeah, I think...

Divya Aikat
No, you did a wonderful job.

Christina Huang
I think it's just another round of building up our Asian American community because I feel like it has been gone. Like the cool thing about Asian American history and identity is not just in history, or in the mainstream narrative. And I think we're kind of like, constructing, or reconstructing what we do know, and creating new narratives about how we, as Asian Americans want to be remembered. I think that that is so empowering itself, about going into archives... this is how we want to be remembered. This is who wants …who should be speaking in the archives and what voices are gonna be contributed. And I think I'm excited in the long run to see who else gets involved... where other initiatives start, because every time a new Asian American org pops up, I'm like Oh, this is so cool. There's like this cool, like- yeah! There's this like- there's like a card game. I think there's Trailblazers, and it was really cool card game about Asian Americans in history. Yeah.

Divya Aikat
So thank you for telling me all of that, Christina. One of the last questions I wanted to ask you was, what did you find were your most- if you had any that stood out- your most challenging and most rewarding moments of being a student at UNC, and pushing for Asian American Studies?

Christina Huang
I definitely think the most challenging sometimes is it can get so overwhelming. And it's a lot to handle, especially like we're both like 18, 19, 20. Like it's really young, you don't know a lot about the world. And you're still setting up boundaries and you're still figuring things out to go. And because of like just coming out of COVID, I think like many students, our ages definitely have struggled with mental health struggles and coming out of that and like now... Um, like I still struggle a bit with like anxiety and in the past like I was diagnosed with like depression stuff in high school. So coming out of that, it overwhelms me like with, like anxiety stuff about like sitting down and like getting all this stuff done and like and also talking about that stuff because mental health is not really talked about. So sometimes it's difficult- and also like impostor syndrome at a place like UNC and meeting incredible people. But I think that was just like everything, like, coming into one... like, new place, mental health, imposter syndrome. And I was like, this is a lot to take on top of like, academic work and trying to find my identity of like, who I want to be at UNC. What I want- like trying to find like a social space at UNC. Oh, wait, I have something that's even... I think also because we are in a rough political climate right now.

Divya Aikat
Yeah.

Christina Huang
Is that is- has been very difficult sometimes, sitting down and being like. Oh white supremacists have come to campus. Some people have thrown like flyers of swastikas around and like, learning about the history here. And I think it's also a lot to take in when you have to relearn your history about like- This is what I knew. But now I'm relearning. And I just like, it's difficult to swallow sometimes. Because I definitely had like, grew up with like a rose tinted glasses. And putting together what this person said or did was not so great. And this has happened or this has happened at my high school or this is what's happening on campus. Like it's a lot to take in sometimes. I think most rewarding is all the cool things I get to do now. It has opened so many doors. I think it started off with going to the Supreme Court on the day of the oral arguments for affirmative action. Because I was like as Asian Americans, we have to stand for affirmative action it supports our community, we have to support other communities and being involved in that has been really cool. And I think being part of SAADA and now doing the SAADA work is crazy to me, because I saw SAADA's textbook that they had. I was like all this is so cool. And now I get to contribute to this huge archive that people can listen to for decades. And so- and being in Philly and exploring the rich history here- again, I said previously, is also really like huge highlights of my experience being like an Asian American at UNC.

Divya Aikat
Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your story and for sharing all of that. I told you this before but you have always inspired me and you continue to inspire me and it's really been an honor to hear your story and all of the steps that you've taken to get where you are. To wrap up are there any other questions that you- or any other things that you would like to share or things that you didn't get to touch on earlier?

Christina Huang
I don't think so. I just wanna say that you are a wonderful like facilitator and I love to speak with you even though it's like recorded- like it's being recorded. I know for me, it really does feel like a conversation and I really enjoy the time- like the hour we spent just talking

Divya Aikat
Me too. Thank you so much.