This item is an audio file.
Oral History Interview with Pawan Dhingra
DESCRIPTION
Oral history interview with Pawan Dhingra, conducted by Asian American Studies Fellow Divya Aikat.
Pawan Dhingra is an author, professor, and former curator and senior advisor of the Smithsonian Institution exhibition, Beyond Bollywood: Asian Indian Americans Shape the Nation. His byline includes The New York Times, CNN, Time Magazine, The Conversation, and many other venues, and he and his work have been profiled in The Washington Post, NPR, The Guardian, Times of India, and elsewhere. His most recent and award-winning monograph is Hyper Education: Why Good Schools, Good Grades, and Good Behavior Are Not Enough (New York University Press 2020), which The Wall Street Journal has said, “offers a fascinating look at a growing subculture,” and which author Min Jin Lee has said, "gets to the root of education obsessions." He speaks from this work in the Netflix documentary, Spelling the Dream. He is the author of the multiple award-winning Life Behind the Lobby: Indian American Motel Owners and the American Dream (Stanford University Press, 2012), which also has been profiled nationwide and internationally. He also authored the award-winning Managing Multicultural Lives: Asian American Professionals and the Challenge of Multiple Identities (Stanford University Press, 2007). Professor Dhingra co-authored Asian America: Sociological and Interdisciplinary Perspectives, which is in its second edition (Polity Press, 2014 and 2021). He has served as president of the board of the South Asian American Digital Archive.
Pawan Dhingra is as associate provost and associate dean of the faculty and the Aliki Perroti and Seth Frank ’55 Professor of U.S. Immigration Studies at Amherst College. He is the immediate past president of the Association for Asian American Studies. His other professional service includes having served as the Faculty Equity and Inclusion Office in the Office of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at Amherst College. He has served as chair of the Asia and Asian America section and as secretary/treasurer of the International Migration Section of the American Sociological Association, on journal boards, reviewer for exhibitions, book presses, foundations and journals, and other commitments. He has received various grants, fellowships, and teaching and research awards. He has spoken to community, media, and academic audiences on topics of immigration, Asian America, entrepreneurship, race, education, DEI, and inequality. He is an active mentor.
Professor Dhingra joined Amherst College after serving as professor and chair of sociology and professor of American studies at Tufts University, as an associate professor of sociology at Oberlin College, and as an assistant professor of sociology at Bucknell University.
AUDIO
Duration: 00:31:44
ADDITIONAL METADATA
Date: July 15, 2024
Subject(s): Pawan Dhingra
Type: Oral History
Language: English
Creator: Divya Aikat
Location: Amherst, MA
TRANSCRIPTION
Interviewee: Pawan Dhingra
Interviewers: Divya Aikat
Date: July 15, 2024
Location: Amherst, Massachusetts
Transcriber: Divya Aikat
Length: 31:44
Divya Aikat (00:01)
Hello, my name is Divya Aikat. Today's date is July 15, 2024. I am located in Salisbury, Maryland, USA. I'm here today with Dr. Pawan Dhingra, current Associate Provost and Associate Dean of the Faculty at Amherst College, as well as a professor of American Studies, Dr. Dhingra would you like to introduce yourself and tell us where you're calling in from today?
Pawan Dhingra (00:26)
It's a pleasure to talk with you. Thanks for engaging with me. I'm also the Chair of the new program in Asian American and Pacific Islander Studies here at Amherst College, and I am talking to you from Amherst, Massachusetts.
Divya Aikat (00:44)
Wonderful, thank you. So, to begin with my questions... In your work and your research, you have been a constant advocate for the South Asian and Indian American communities. Also, as previous president of the board of SAADA – and that is one of the ways that I found out about your work – I'm curious about your own experiences as a South Asian American, within the field of Asian American Studies. Could you explain a little bit more about your visibility or invisibility of that South Asian American identity while doing this work?
Pawan Dhingra (01:21)
Yeah, so that's a good question. Because for so long, it was rare to be working on South Asian American Studies within Asian American Studies and to be South Asian within Asian American Studies. So I went to college in the early 90s, finished in the mid 90s, heard of grad school after a year away. I've been involved in Asian American Studies, you know, throughout the 90s and since then. And you know, for a long time, when I'd be at our major conference for Asian American Studies, people would say things to me, like, "Oh, it's so great, you're here." Meaning that they're glad that someone who did South Asian American Studies felt part of or at least was visible in Asian American Studies Association meetings, because that helped kind of diversify and broaden the field. Not just me, obviously, there are others who were ahead of me. Like Rajini Srikanth, who is a past President of AAAS, Sunaina Maira, others. But there weren't a lot of us. And so each person kind of had a, you know, notable presence. So when you hear that being said, like "it was really great you're here," it kind of has two implications. One is that it's an appreciation that you're there and a recognition that, you know, there's a lot of us, that's really nice. We're trying to be welcomed. But at the same time, it's a constant reminder that you stick out, that you don't fully belong, even though the act of them saying that is to create belonging. So that's a lot of how you experienced being a South Asian Americanist in Asian American Studies for quite a while. Less so today, but for quite a while that was the case.
Divya Aikat (03:31)
Right. And could you explain more about how time and place have altered your experiences? How has it changed over time since you began in Asian American Studies and then also at the various locations in universities that you've been at, how those experiences have differed?
Pawan Dhingra (03:51)
So I went to grad school in upstate New York, and then I've been teaching in different places across the country. And one thing I've learned is that- well, you know, your day-to-day life as an Asian American or Indian American at the grocery store, or this that, really does vary by your location. Right? When I lived in the Boston area, you know, I lived in a town with lots of Indian Americans and other Asian Americans. So walking around, you just felt like you were part of an already kind of entrenched community of sorts. And yet, coming out, I lived in Pennsylvania, I lived in Ohio, lived in upstate New York. Those places, you definitely feel like you kind of stand out. Now, when I'm thinking about my life, in terms of my work, in terms of the institutions that I'm working in, the universities I'm working in. Those can be really welcoming or less so, not based on their geography, but it’s based on who else is there, right? Why you were hired, and what the understandings of your colleagues is of your work. So places, like in Ohio, can be incredibly welcoming, you know, in ways that wouldn't be expected based on its geography. I also lived in LA for a year after college before I went to grad school, working for an Asian American nonprofit in Chinatown. And that was a really kind of eye opening experience for the diversity of Asian American communities and cultures. And challenges that Asian Americans face. And so I've always appreciated that as well.
Divya Aikat (05:49)
Wonderful, thank you for sharing. I think it's interesting in Asian American Studies, both the ways that we explore this representation and diversification interpersonally, just as people, in our lives and then also through literature, and through actually working to study this. And kind of along that same line, you have accomplished a variety of things in your work, as an award-winning author, Smithsonian curator, as immediate past President of AAAS, and more. And I wanted to ask, especially in this oral history collection, one of our goals is to use it for students to reference in their Asian American Studies journey, both pushing for it to see where students, faculty, community members are at, in their various journeys along Asian American Studies. I wanted to ask, did any moments in your work or in your life, considerably alter your path or ignite this spark in you that's pushed you to pursue Asian American Studies at the level that you have?
Pawan Dhingra (06:59)
It's a really good question. I mean, I can't think of any particular moment. I think it was more when you're learning that there is kind of a perspective, or even a language through which to understand your own upbringing and experiences, that makes it not feel like it's idiosyncratic, but part of a broader trend or picture. And once you have access to that, then it's really empowering. Because then it helps you see that there are broader trends that have helped create the kind of experiences you've had, and you share a lot of similarity with others, and then that connection with others, then it allows you to develop broader identities. And when that happens- I was fortunate enough to learn about the study of Asian American Studies, to then realize there's a whole kind of field dedicated to the study of this and to increase your new knowledge around this and appreciating the experiences of people. And because I was someone who really liked research, then it became a great space to fall into and kind of then, you know, learn from. So it wasn't a particular experience or noted moment. It was more kind of gradual realization of a set of perspectives, language, studies, research, that I could identify with, and then kind of help grow into.
Divya Aikat (08:49)
Right. So thinking about that path for Asian American Studies at Amherst and the ways that that has bloomed and then grown. I actually have recently collected Karina Maciel's oral history, and I'll be speaking with Gabby soon. So I'm trying to kind of get the full picture of the student and faculty perspectives that are happening at Amherst College. And so I wanted to ask if you could kind of walk me through that timeline for the Asian American Studies program at Amherst, from your perspective as a faculty member?
Pawan Dhingra (09:29)
Yeah. So, they're getting really excited that this program is starting and that we are – at Amherst – the first liberal arts college in the country, with its own major in this field. So the timeline dates back decades really, in the sense that there's always been student activists that have been pushing for this. So first, literally 50 years ago students at Amherst were pushing for... just any kind of content on their experiences in classes, and gradually began to pushing for classes on Asian Americans. And over the years, that became pushing for faculty who are going to train in teaching this, not just someone who offered a course, even though their area of expertise was something different. And then it gradually kind of morphed into like, "Well, we want more than just a few faculty. We want a whole curriculum, we want a field of study, we want a major."
And so notable events around this were like... 2015 -- I wasn't here at Amherst at the time -- but there was a student-led protest called Amherst Uprising, that a lot of students of color were leading. I think that helped kind of commit the students there the time, recommit them to pushing for more curricular representation of Asian Americans. This is different than having, for instance, like an Asian American student group. You really want to see yourself in the curriculum, you want to be able to study people whose experiences are akin to your own. So when I arrived in 2018, there were already faculty here who'd been pushing for this and students and such. So, I helped join with those who were already working here to help advocate for Asian American Studies. And part of that advocating included organizing what we call a cluster hire, basically create three hires in Asian American and Pacific Islander Studies. That was fruitful, that was successful. So, kind of a long story short, we're able to get enough faculty here.
We work a lot with current students at the time who are now alumni, some still current students. Meeting with them regularly to talk about, you know, what they're interested in, showing them a draft for the major proposal to get their feedback on it. Talk to them about how they can be supportive and what faculty are doing. And talking to alumni also to help them encourage their current faculty to promote this. And then it came to it, we got a proposal for the faculty to vote on. And they voted on it, you know, with significant overwhelming support back in February or March. And that's what created the major. So now the major starts this fall. We already have a couple of students signed up doing theses and really great, really great momentum going.
Divya Aikat (12:45)
Great! And I think that there are these similar pushes happening at various universities nationwide. And, for example, at UNC, we also just had a cluster hire, and we're working towards this program. And I think with some schools, more so than others, it can be more of a slow journey for this actualization of Asian American Studies. And so I wanted to ask if you think that there were any unique factors, or climate, or certain catalysts at Amherst that may have eventually led to this major.
Pawan Dhingra (13:24)
So I think, to your earlier point, I think this is the trend going on right now. Right? I mean, I wrote a piece about this for a newspaper called The Conversation, where the point of the piece was that you're seeing like a lot of growth in Asian American Studies right now, nationally. Vanderbilt, UNC, Williams College, various places. And the reason for this, I think, is because we're all kind of coming out of this horrific period of anti-Asian racism during the height of COVID, tied to COVID and beyond, that really drew national attention. And demanded and led to a student and faculty push for greater attention to Asian American issues and Asian American Studies. You combine that atmosphere, which is also going on here, with a long push that, as I mentioned already, that's been pushing for Asian American Studies. So you know, people weren't having to say this for the first time, they were referring to this ongoing need that had been articulated by students and faculty for years, and years. And then someone like myself, who, while new to the college, relatively new, I was already in the administration, I can push for it on the inside. So it's a combination of factors that really help galvanize this, but, you know, it's a national trend. And Amherst is by no means the cutting edge of things, you know. But we just happen to make the right decisions at the right time.
Divya Aikat (15:04)
Right, that makes sense. I think also talking about the different student advocacy aspects of Ethnic Studies and thinking about pushing for Asian American Studies, AAPI Studies, at our own universities. From what I've heard collecting these stories, a lot of people feel that the institution sometimes wait them out or that four years can be a difficult amount of time to create something sustainable and long lasting. So for current or future students in institutions that maybe don't have programs, that want to start and build this kind of longevity that will eventually lead to a major or program, what advice would you give?
Pawan Dhingra (15:57)
Advice I would give is to demand on meetings with as highly situated administrators as you can. And take notes, take minutes of the meetings, follow up with emails so there's documentation of what was decided, what you're waiting on. Have them explain to you what obstacles they're facing to make progress. And then challenge them to say, well, what can they do to help make progress against these obstacles? Not just waiting for things to change on their own. Work with faculty, to talk to them, because faculty are really key drivers in a lot of these institutions, helping them understand the needs for the academic goals that you have, so they get buy in from them. And, very importantly, students can't just be advocating for change, they need to be taking courses, need to be writing papers, need to be doing all the academic nuts and bolts that demonstrate interest in a field. The goal is to build up a curricular field in Asian American Studies, then students have to demonstrate that they care about this curricular field. Because if that's not demonstrated in all of the advocacy, all the protests or meetings won't amount to anything. It's fundamental. So students really have to kind of be in the seats, you know. And then, current faculty offer more courses, because they see students taking the courses that are being offered. You need the high enrollments, you need the curricular commitment by students. It's the foundation from which to build.
Divya Aikat (17:49)
I think that's very helpful advice. And from your faculty perspective from this Asian American Studies push at Amherst, what have your interactions been like with students? How involved have you been in the process? Did they come to you? Did you help group them together? What did it look like from your end?
Pawan Dhingra (18:07)
So the students here were already organized, which is great. They had our own kind of student group dedicated to the advancement of Asian American Studies and other political issues. When I got here, obviously, I'm teaching, but I'm meeting with students. And then as I got more involved in the planning for the major, I met with them, I think, monthly. I don't remember now whose idea it was to meet. I think maybe they offered- they asked for a meeting. And then we met. And then I think the idea out of that came we should meet regularly, you know, and so whether it be lunches or other things, to connect with them. And the same is with alumni, there's an alumni association of Asian American alumni, AAAN [Amherst Asian Alumni Network] as it's called. I've met with representatives of them monthly, as well. Basically, we keep up to date, answer questions, get feedback. So, the students are obviously meeting on their own and doing things on their own that are separate from faculty, separate from me. But I think there's been a good healthy amount of interaction with students, even leading up to after the major got passed. Celebrating it together, working together to create a celebration. I mean, obviously, there could always maybe be more. But we listen very carefully to students, the student organization that I referred to. Their priorities, their feedback on the proposals while we're still editing it, and thinking it through. So yeah, I think that's usually helpful.
Divya Aikat (19:30)
Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that there always has to be, kind of like what you're explaining, that interest convergence between faculty, students, administration. And that support on both ends is so important. And I also wanted to ask: What were, personally for you, the most challenging, and then most rewarding moments of the advocacy process for this program?
Pawan Dhingra (20:28)
The most challenging moment, in some ways was early on, when we felt – we being some of the faculty who were working on this, this is a long time ago now, a few years ago – felt that there was really no way forward. Like, we weren't going to get seen as a legitimate academic necessity to the campus, the hiring priorities are always going to be different than what we were advocating for. And it really didn't feel like there was any kind of way around that. The biggest highlight was the day of the faculty meeting when, you know, 96% of the faculty voted in favor of this. And there was a round of applause right afterwards, you know, in recognition of this. So that felt really great, you know. And then being able to celebrate with students and others in the community a couple of months later, with student speakers, and you know, the President and the Provost there's. It's all really nice, really wonderful.
Divya Aikat (21:37)
Great, yeah. And congratulations on that. I think that's amazing.
Pawan Dhingra (21:41)
Yeah, it's a new opportunity for us.
Divya Aikat (21:46)
Yeah, and circling back to thinking about your position as a researcher. Your academic work over the years has explored the sociology of immigration, education and hyper education, and intersectionality in many facets. And I'm sure you can give a much better summary of your research. But could you tell me about how your experiences in mobilizing for Asian American Studies has influenced your research or your approaches and understandings to the work that you do?
Pawan Dhingra (22:24)
So I think in helping advocate for Asian American Studies, you know, at other campuses that I was at before I got here, and now here at Amherst, has helped me kind of appreciate and come to the foundational aspects of the field and why it's so important. What it adds to a curriculum, how other courses or fields or departments and majors don't capture what is captured here. And so that doesn't have an immediate impact on my particular research that I would pursue. But I actually am kind of working on a book- Not about pushing for Asian American Studies, but on kind of the assumptions around anti-Asian racism. Actually, because you're at UNC, you said, right? [Divya: Mhm] I was giving some talks at UNC. This book was gonna come out of where I was speaking about these themes, and it ties to kind of like why we need Asian American Studies in the first place. Which is what advocacy is about.
Divya Aikat (23:41)
That's interesting. Do you think that also- a lot of your work focuses on education and then thinking about concerted cultivation, the ways that education is kind of born and bred within Asian American families. Working in higher education at an institution, has that research informed any of it or informed your personal ideas of how we can structure education at an institution or within ethnic studies?
Pawan Dhingra (24:15)
So that's a good question. So my research on education has been more like the elementary school, middle school level. And in particular, the increasingly common pursuit by so many families, including many Asian families although not just them, of educational spaces outside of school. So like think of after school educational companies or academic competitions. And my book, Hyper Education, focused on why so many parents commit their kids to education beyond school, when those students are very young, they're not in need of anything, they're doing just fine, they're in good schools. It doesn't really make any sense on the surface. But then again, it's increasingly common. So, I wanted to dig into that and uncover that. That doesn't really pertain to ethnic studies. But it is a great opportunity to think about, you know, how education can be really important for obviously anyone, but including immigrant communities. But the way in which immigrants can pursue education can be kind of off putting to others, even though what they're doing is just taking advantage of opportunities that are around them, and they're not doing anything exceptional, but can be seen as going too far, therefore, the term hyper education.
Divya Aikat (25:57)
Okay, thank you for that explanation. I wanted to ask just a couple more questions. Christina and I, we've been working on this oral history, and we've been speaking a lot with faculty and students. And I think one thing that is continuously coming up in this advocacy work, is burnout. And that goes along with sustainability and trying to sustain a program through generations of students. And as a seasoned faculty member, how do you navigate this space? Both this advocacy space and then I think in ethnic studies, there's a long history of mentorship, that is not necessarily within the institution, but is everywhere. And so how do you navigate the space to continue momentum, but also establish these boundaries and prevent burnout?
Pawan Dhingra (26:54)
Yeah, that's an incredibly important perspective. And I'm glad you raised it, I'm not great at modeling how to draw boundaries and such. Sometimes, you only know you've bitten off more than you can chew after you've bitten it off. So that happens, sometimes. You do have to be, you know, a pretty organized person to keep all the balls in the air that need to be balanced at various points. And you need to turn to others, and rely on others to get the broader work done. That also means not thinking about, you know, sometimes things like ego. It doesn't really matter who gets credit for something, the important thing is that it gets done. And so when you're starting off in your career, you're trying to build a name for yourself, trying to feel confident in your own abilities, you do think about things like ego. But as you get older, you let things go, which is really helpful. So I mean, I'm not great about my own kind of management, in terms of balance, but I do a fine job, I wouldn't say I'm great at it. But mentoring is something I try to do for faculty. Because there's a lot of taking for granted knowledge you accumulate that if you can share with others, they can get through things much more easily. And you want to support them as much as you can, because they really deserve it.
Divya Aikat (28:40)
Mhm, great. Thank you so much. To move on to my last question, which is: Zooming out of all of these details, what does it mean to you to be a part of this Asian American Studies movement as a whole?
Pawan Dhingra (28:55)
Oh, that's really interesting. I will say that it feels really- I mean, I think we're all part of it. You're part of it, you know, Karina and Gabby are part of it, the other faculty here are part of it, people across the country are part of it. So when I talk about myself being part of it, I'm just one part, like all of us are. I really feel kind of privileged about it, you know. It is pretty exciting to be able to be part of a launch of a new major in a field. And hopefully that will help other small liberal arts colleges advocate for themselves. Cause they now point to a college that has its own major. Again, the five colleges in Claremont Colleges have had a major for a while, but it's a combined one. They've been around for 25 years; it's very impressive.
So anyway, being part of something like this feels really significant in that regard. Having been able to work with SAADA on the board gave me an opportunity to learn quite a bit, which was really exciting, I take away a lot of, you know, well learned lessons there, a lot of knowledge, a lot of good connections and friendships. And then similarly, being President of AAAS gave me a sense of privilege to be able to help lead this academic organization that's really essential to the field of Asian American Studies. And again, work with an amazing set of faculty and staff. In those two years, or three years, actually. Which I’m really excited by and glad that it continues to be in really great hands. So, you know, those things are all really exciting, especially to your earlier point around... we started off talking about being one of the few, at the time, Indian American Studies persons, Indian Americans in the field. And going from like, where you were kind of a token in the field to being someone who's, you know, fully in it, at this point. Feels really kind of a full circle. And again, the people you meet along the way and the lessons you learn along the way, are really valuable. And so I'm excited for all those past experiences.
Divya Aikat (31:32)
Wonderful, thank you so much for sharing your journey with us and your reflections about this.
Pawan Dhingra (31:39)
Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about these things.
Interviewers: Divya Aikat
Date: July 15, 2024
Location: Amherst, Massachusetts
Transcriber: Divya Aikat
Length: 31:44
Divya Aikat (00:01)
Hello, my name is Divya Aikat. Today's date is July 15, 2024. I am located in Salisbury, Maryland, USA. I'm here today with Dr. Pawan Dhingra, current Associate Provost and Associate Dean of the Faculty at Amherst College, as well as a professor of American Studies, Dr. Dhingra would you like to introduce yourself and tell us where you're calling in from today?
Pawan Dhingra (00:26)
It's a pleasure to talk with you. Thanks for engaging with me. I'm also the Chair of the new program in Asian American and Pacific Islander Studies here at Amherst College, and I am talking to you from Amherst, Massachusetts.
Divya Aikat (00:44)
Wonderful, thank you. So, to begin with my questions... In your work and your research, you have been a constant advocate for the South Asian and Indian American communities. Also, as previous president of the board of SAADA – and that is one of the ways that I found out about your work – I'm curious about your own experiences as a South Asian American, within the field of Asian American Studies. Could you explain a little bit more about your visibility or invisibility of that South Asian American identity while doing this work?
Pawan Dhingra (01:21)
Yeah, so that's a good question. Because for so long, it was rare to be working on South Asian American Studies within Asian American Studies and to be South Asian within Asian American Studies. So I went to college in the early 90s, finished in the mid 90s, heard of grad school after a year away. I've been involved in Asian American Studies, you know, throughout the 90s and since then. And you know, for a long time, when I'd be at our major conference for Asian American Studies, people would say things to me, like, "Oh, it's so great, you're here." Meaning that they're glad that someone who did South Asian American Studies felt part of or at least was visible in Asian American Studies Association meetings, because that helped kind of diversify and broaden the field. Not just me, obviously, there are others who were ahead of me. Like Rajini Srikanth, who is a past President of AAAS, Sunaina Maira, others. But there weren't a lot of us. And so each person kind of had a, you know, notable presence. So when you hear that being said, like "it was really great you're here," it kind of has two implications. One is that it's an appreciation that you're there and a recognition that, you know, there's a lot of us, that's really nice. We're trying to be welcomed. But at the same time, it's a constant reminder that you stick out, that you don't fully belong, even though the act of them saying that is to create belonging. So that's a lot of how you experienced being a South Asian Americanist in Asian American Studies for quite a while. Less so today, but for quite a while that was the case.
Divya Aikat (03:31)
Right. And could you explain more about how time and place have altered your experiences? How has it changed over time since you began in Asian American Studies and then also at the various locations in universities that you've been at, how those experiences have differed?
Pawan Dhingra (03:51)
So I went to grad school in upstate New York, and then I've been teaching in different places across the country. And one thing I've learned is that- well, you know, your day-to-day life as an Asian American or Indian American at the grocery store, or this that, really does vary by your location. Right? When I lived in the Boston area, you know, I lived in a town with lots of Indian Americans and other Asian Americans. So walking around, you just felt like you were part of an already kind of entrenched community of sorts. And yet, coming out, I lived in Pennsylvania, I lived in Ohio, lived in upstate New York. Those places, you definitely feel like you kind of stand out. Now, when I'm thinking about my life, in terms of my work, in terms of the institutions that I'm working in, the universities I'm working in. Those can be really welcoming or less so, not based on their geography, but it’s based on who else is there, right? Why you were hired, and what the understandings of your colleagues is of your work. So places, like in Ohio, can be incredibly welcoming, you know, in ways that wouldn't be expected based on its geography. I also lived in LA for a year after college before I went to grad school, working for an Asian American nonprofit in Chinatown. And that was a really kind of eye opening experience for the diversity of Asian American communities and cultures. And challenges that Asian Americans face. And so I've always appreciated that as well.
Divya Aikat (05:49)
Wonderful, thank you for sharing. I think it's interesting in Asian American Studies, both the ways that we explore this representation and diversification interpersonally, just as people, in our lives and then also through literature, and through actually working to study this. And kind of along that same line, you have accomplished a variety of things in your work, as an award-winning author, Smithsonian curator, as immediate past President of AAAS, and more. And I wanted to ask, especially in this oral history collection, one of our goals is to use it for students to reference in their Asian American Studies journey, both pushing for it to see where students, faculty, community members are at, in their various journeys along Asian American Studies. I wanted to ask, did any moments in your work or in your life, considerably alter your path or ignite this spark in you that's pushed you to pursue Asian American Studies at the level that you have?
Pawan Dhingra (06:59)
It's a really good question. I mean, I can't think of any particular moment. I think it was more when you're learning that there is kind of a perspective, or even a language through which to understand your own upbringing and experiences, that makes it not feel like it's idiosyncratic, but part of a broader trend or picture. And once you have access to that, then it's really empowering. Because then it helps you see that there are broader trends that have helped create the kind of experiences you've had, and you share a lot of similarity with others, and then that connection with others, then it allows you to develop broader identities. And when that happens- I was fortunate enough to learn about the study of Asian American Studies, to then realize there's a whole kind of field dedicated to the study of this and to increase your new knowledge around this and appreciating the experiences of people. And because I was someone who really liked research, then it became a great space to fall into and kind of then, you know, learn from. So it wasn't a particular experience or noted moment. It was more kind of gradual realization of a set of perspectives, language, studies, research, that I could identify with, and then kind of help grow into.
Divya Aikat (08:49)
Right. So thinking about that path for Asian American Studies at Amherst and the ways that that has bloomed and then grown. I actually have recently collected Karina Maciel's oral history, and I'll be speaking with Gabby soon. So I'm trying to kind of get the full picture of the student and faculty perspectives that are happening at Amherst College. And so I wanted to ask if you could kind of walk me through that timeline for the Asian American Studies program at Amherst, from your perspective as a faculty member?
Pawan Dhingra (09:29)
Yeah. So, they're getting really excited that this program is starting and that we are – at Amherst – the first liberal arts college in the country, with its own major in this field. So the timeline dates back decades really, in the sense that there's always been student activists that have been pushing for this. So first, literally 50 years ago students at Amherst were pushing for... just any kind of content on their experiences in classes, and gradually began to pushing for classes on Asian Americans. And over the years, that became pushing for faculty who are going to train in teaching this, not just someone who offered a course, even though their area of expertise was something different. And then it gradually kind of morphed into like, "Well, we want more than just a few faculty. We want a whole curriculum, we want a field of study, we want a major."
And so notable events around this were like... 2015 -- I wasn't here at Amherst at the time -- but there was a student-led protest called Amherst Uprising, that a lot of students of color were leading. I think that helped kind of commit the students there the time, recommit them to pushing for more curricular representation of Asian Americans. This is different than having, for instance, like an Asian American student group. You really want to see yourself in the curriculum, you want to be able to study people whose experiences are akin to your own. So when I arrived in 2018, there were already faculty here who'd been pushing for this and students and such. So, I helped join with those who were already working here to help advocate for Asian American Studies. And part of that advocating included organizing what we call a cluster hire, basically create three hires in Asian American and Pacific Islander Studies. That was fruitful, that was successful. So, kind of a long story short, we're able to get enough faculty here.
We work a lot with current students at the time who are now alumni, some still current students. Meeting with them regularly to talk about, you know, what they're interested in, showing them a draft for the major proposal to get their feedback on it. Talk to them about how they can be supportive and what faculty are doing. And talking to alumni also to help them encourage their current faculty to promote this. And then it came to it, we got a proposal for the faculty to vote on. And they voted on it, you know, with significant overwhelming support back in February or March. And that's what created the major. So now the major starts this fall. We already have a couple of students signed up doing theses and really great, really great momentum going.
Divya Aikat (12:45)
Great! And I think that there are these similar pushes happening at various universities nationwide. And, for example, at UNC, we also just had a cluster hire, and we're working towards this program. And I think with some schools, more so than others, it can be more of a slow journey for this actualization of Asian American Studies. And so I wanted to ask if you think that there were any unique factors, or climate, or certain catalysts at Amherst that may have eventually led to this major.
Pawan Dhingra (13:24)
So I think, to your earlier point, I think this is the trend going on right now. Right? I mean, I wrote a piece about this for a newspaper called The Conversation, where the point of the piece was that you're seeing like a lot of growth in Asian American Studies right now, nationally. Vanderbilt, UNC, Williams College, various places. And the reason for this, I think, is because we're all kind of coming out of this horrific period of anti-Asian racism during the height of COVID, tied to COVID and beyond, that really drew national attention. And demanded and led to a student and faculty push for greater attention to Asian American issues and Asian American Studies. You combine that atmosphere, which is also going on here, with a long push that, as I mentioned already, that's been pushing for Asian American Studies. So you know, people weren't having to say this for the first time, they were referring to this ongoing need that had been articulated by students and faculty for years, and years. And then someone like myself, who, while new to the college, relatively new, I was already in the administration, I can push for it on the inside. So it's a combination of factors that really help galvanize this, but, you know, it's a national trend. And Amherst is by no means the cutting edge of things, you know. But we just happen to make the right decisions at the right time.
Divya Aikat (15:04)
Right, that makes sense. I think also talking about the different student advocacy aspects of Ethnic Studies and thinking about pushing for Asian American Studies, AAPI Studies, at our own universities. From what I've heard collecting these stories, a lot of people feel that the institution sometimes wait them out or that four years can be a difficult amount of time to create something sustainable and long lasting. So for current or future students in institutions that maybe don't have programs, that want to start and build this kind of longevity that will eventually lead to a major or program, what advice would you give?
Pawan Dhingra (15:57)
Advice I would give is to demand on meetings with as highly situated administrators as you can. And take notes, take minutes of the meetings, follow up with emails so there's documentation of what was decided, what you're waiting on. Have them explain to you what obstacles they're facing to make progress. And then challenge them to say, well, what can they do to help make progress against these obstacles? Not just waiting for things to change on their own. Work with faculty, to talk to them, because faculty are really key drivers in a lot of these institutions, helping them understand the needs for the academic goals that you have, so they get buy in from them. And, very importantly, students can't just be advocating for change, they need to be taking courses, need to be writing papers, need to be doing all the academic nuts and bolts that demonstrate interest in a field. The goal is to build up a curricular field in Asian American Studies, then students have to demonstrate that they care about this curricular field. Because if that's not demonstrated in all of the advocacy, all the protests or meetings won't amount to anything. It's fundamental. So students really have to kind of be in the seats, you know. And then, current faculty offer more courses, because they see students taking the courses that are being offered. You need the high enrollments, you need the curricular commitment by students. It's the foundation from which to build.
Divya Aikat (17:49)
I think that's very helpful advice. And from your faculty perspective from this Asian American Studies push at Amherst, what have your interactions been like with students? How involved have you been in the process? Did they come to you? Did you help group them together? What did it look like from your end?
Pawan Dhingra (18:07)
So the students here were already organized, which is great. They had our own kind of student group dedicated to the advancement of Asian American Studies and other political issues. When I got here, obviously, I'm teaching, but I'm meeting with students. And then as I got more involved in the planning for the major, I met with them, I think, monthly. I don't remember now whose idea it was to meet. I think maybe they offered- they asked for a meeting. And then we met. And then I think the idea out of that came we should meet regularly, you know, and so whether it be lunches or other things, to connect with them. And the same is with alumni, there's an alumni association of Asian American alumni, AAAN [Amherst Asian Alumni Network] as it's called. I've met with representatives of them monthly, as well. Basically, we keep up to date, answer questions, get feedback. So, the students are obviously meeting on their own and doing things on their own that are separate from faculty, separate from me. But I think there's been a good healthy amount of interaction with students, even leading up to after the major got passed. Celebrating it together, working together to create a celebration. I mean, obviously, there could always maybe be more. But we listen very carefully to students, the student organization that I referred to. Their priorities, their feedback on the proposals while we're still editing it, and thinking it through. So yeah, I think that's usually helpful.
Divya Aikat (19:30)
Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that there always has to be, kind of like what you're explaining, that interest convergence between faculty, students, administration. And that support on both ends is so important. And I also wanted to ask: What were, personally for you, the most challenging, and then most rewarding moments of the advocacy process for this program?
Pawan Dhingra (20:28)
The most challenging moment, in some ways was early on, when we felt – we being some of the faculty who were working on this, this is a long time ago now, a few years ago – felt that there was really no way forward. Like, we weren't going to get seen as a legitimate academic necessity to the campus, the hiring priorities are always going to be different than what we were advocating for. And it really didn't feel like there was any kind of way around that. The biggest highlight was the day of the faculty meeting when, you know, 96% of the faculty voted in favor of this. And there was a round of applause right afterwards, you know, in recognition of this. So that felt really great, you know. And then being able to celebrate with students and others in the community a couple of months later, with student speakers, and you know, the President and the Provost there's. It's all really nice, really wonderful.
Divya Aikat (21:37)
Great, yeah. And congratulations on that. I think that's amazing.
Pawan Dhingra (21:41)
Yeah, it's a new opportunity for us.
Divya Aikat (21:46)
Yeah, and circling back to thinking about your position as a researcher. Your academic work over the years has explored the sociology of immigration, education and hyper education, and intersectionality in many facets. And I'm sure you can give a much better summary of your research. But could you tell me about how your experiences in mobilizing for Asian American Studies has influenced your research or your approaches and understandings to the work that you do?
Pawan Dhingra (22:24)
So I think in helping advocate for Asian American Studies, you know, at other campuses that I was at before I got here, and now here at Amherst, has helped me kind of appreciate and come to the foundational aspects of the field and why it's so important. What it adds to a curriculum, how other courses or fields or departments and majors don't capture what is captured here. And so that doesn't have an immediate impact on my particular research that I would pursue. But I actually am kind of working on a book- Not about pushing for Asian American Studies, but on kind of the assumptions around anti-Asian racism. Actually, because you're at UNC, you said, right? [Divya: Mhm] I was giving some talks at UNC. This book was gonna come out of where I was speaking about these themes, and it ties to kind of like why we need Asian American Studies in the first place. Which is what advocacy is about.
Divya Aikat (23:41)
That's interesting. Do you think that also- a lot of your work focuses on education and then thinking about concerted cultivation, the ways that education is kind of born and bred within Asian American families. Working in higher education at an institution, has that research informed any of it or informed your personal ideas of how we can structure education at an institution or within ethnic studies?
Pawan Dhingra (24:15)
So that's a good question. So my research on education has been more like the elementary school, middle school level. And in particular, the increasingly common pursuit by so many families, including many Asian families although not just them, of educational spaces outside of school. So like think of after school educational companies or academic competitions. And my book, Hyper Education, focused on why so many parents commit their kids to education beyond school, when those students are very young, they're not in need of anything, they're doing just fine, they're in good schools. It doesn't really make any sense on the surface. But then again, it's increasingly common. So, I wanted to dig into that and uncover that. That doesn't really pertain to ethnic studies. But it is a great opportunity to think about, you know, how education can be really important for obviously anyone, but including immigrant communities. But the way in which immigrants can pursue education can be kind of off putting to others, even though what they're doing is just taking advantage of opportunities that are around them, and they're not doing anything exceptional, but can be seen as going too far, therefore, the term hyper education.
Divya Aikat (25:57)
Okay, thank you for that explanation. I wanted to ask just a couple more questions. Christina and I, we've been working on this oral history, and we've been speaking a lot with faculty and students. And I think one thing that is continuously coming up in this advocacy work, is burnout. And that goes along with sustainability and trying to sustain a program through generations of students. And as a seasoned faculty member, how do you navigate this space? Both this advocacy space and then I think in ethnic studies, there's a long history of mentorship, that is not necessarily within the institution, but is everywhere. And so how do you navigate the space to continue momentum, but also establish these boundaries and prevent burnout?
Pawan Dhingra (26:54)
Yeah, that's an incredibly important perspective. And I'm glad you raised it, I'm not great at modeling how to draw boundaries and such. Sometimes, you only know you've bitten off more than you can chew after you've bitten it off. So that happens, sometimes. You do have to be, you know, a pretty organized person to keep all the balls in the air that need to be balanced at various points. And you need to turn to others, and rely on others to get the broader work done. That also means not thinking about, you know, sometimes things like ego. It doesn't really matter who gets credit for something, the important thing is that it gets done. And so when you're starting off in your career, you're trying to build a name for yourself, trying to feel confident in your own abilities, you do think about things like ego. But as you get older, you let things go, which is really helpful. So I mean, I'm not great about my own kind of management, in terms of balance, but I do a fine job, I wouldn't say I'm great at it. But mentoring is something I try to do for faculty. Because there's a lot of taking for granted knowledge you accumulate that if you can share with others, they can get through things much more easily. And you want to support them as much as you can, because they really deserve it.
Divya Aikat (28:40)
Mhm, great. Thank you so much. To move on to my last question, which is: Zooming out of all of these details, what does it mean to you to be a part of this Asian American Studies movement as a whole?
Pawan Dhingra (28:55)
Oh, that's really interesting. I will say that it feels really- I mean, I think we're all part of it. You're part of it, you know, Karina and Gabby are part of it, the other faculty here are part of it, people across the country are part of it. So when I talk about myself being part of it, I'm just one part, like all of us are. I really feel kind of privileged about it, you know. It is pretty exciting to be able to be part of a launch of a new major in a field. And hopefully that will help other small liberal arts colleges advocate for themselves. Cause they now point to a college that has its own major. Again, the five colleges in Claremont Colleges have had a major for a while, but it's a combined one. They've been around for 25 years; it's very impressive.
So anyway, being part of something like this feels really significant in that regard. Having been able to work with SAADA on the board gave me an opportunity to learn quite a bit, which was really exciting, I take away a lot of, you know, well learned lessons there, a lot of knowledge, a lot of good connections and friendships. And then similarly, being President of AAAS gave me a sense of privilege to be able to help lead this academic organization that's really essential to the field of Asian American Studies. And again, work with an amazing set of faculty and staff. In those two years, or three years, actually. Which I’m really excited by and glad that it continues to be in really great hands. So, you know, those things are all really exciting, especially to your earlier point around... we started off talking about being one of the few, at the time, Indian American Studies persons, Indian Americans in the field. And going from like, where you were kind of a token in the field to being someone who's, you know, fully in it, at this point. Feels really kind of a full circle. And again, the people you meet along the way and the lessons you learn along the way, are really valuable. And so I'm excited for all those past experiences.
Divya Aikat (31:32)
Wonderful, thank you so much for sharing your journey with us and your reflections about this.
Pawan Dhingra (31:39)
Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about these things.
PROVENANCE
Collection: Asian American Studies Fellowship Project
Item History: 2024-09-11 (created); 2024-09-20 (modified)
* This digital object may not be sold or redistributed, copied or distributed as a photograph, electronic file, or any other media without express written consent from the copyright holder and the South Asian American Digital Archive (SAADA). The user is responsible for all issues of copyright. If you are the rightful copyright holder of this item and its use online constitutes an infringement of your copyright, please contact us by email at copyright@saada.org to discuss its removal from the archive.