Interviewee: Dr. Vimal Goyle

Interviewer: Amber Abbas

Transcriber: Alisha Cunzio

AA: (0:08)
All right… All right. Thank you so much for being here. My name is Amber Abbas, and I'm here interviewing Dr. Vimal Goyle. We're speaking today using Zoom as our recording platform, because we are under the restrictions— the lockdown restrictions of the Coronavirus pandemic. But despite that, I'm glad that we have the opportunity to speak, and thank you so much for making the time for me.

AA: (0:36)
So as I mentioned, I'm going to ask you some questions about your life as a whole, and we'll have a couple of opportunities to reflect and think about how you see your own life as a journey. So could you start please by pronouncing and spelling your full name for me?

VG: (1:02)
My first name is Vimal: V – I – M – A – L. And then no middle name. So I have a last name Goyle: G – O – Y – L – E.

AA: (1:16)
And when and where were you born?

VG: (1:20)
I was born in the city of Bhatinda in Punjab, India. Home delivery. My actual date was not written by my parents, so when I went to school my grandma put the date 7 July—uh 20th of July, 1941. But my mom told me it was around March, actually. It was March sometime.

AA: (1:49)
So, before a monsoon or during monsoon, right? That's a pretty big difference.

VG: (1:55)
Yeah. [inaudible] July, right.

AA: (1:58)
I imagine if she - giving birth at home - she would remember if it was cooler weather or hotter weather.

VG: (2:07)
No, she know in March we have a one celebration festival come – Holi. So she said around Holi. No, I never took that time to exactly pinpoint that day, so that's why I don't know. My elder sister may have [inaudible] little more. I have a still older sister living - she's 85. So… that’s where we are.

AA: (2:35)
And how many siblings do you have?

VG: (2:37)
I have six; four sisters and two brothers.

AA: (2:43)
And which— so you're seven altogether? Which number are you?

VG: (2:48)
Third.

AA: (2:53)
Third, okay. [sounds of writing] So you must have gotten a lot of experience raising little children when you were only a little girl.

VG: (3:00)
Not really. I think since I had two older sisters, they had the brunt. [laughs] I didn't have to do as much. Because by the time, you know, started school, and started going to high school and all that, so I don't remember doing that much for the little ones.

AA: (3:23)
What were your parent’s names? And were they from Bhatinda, or had they come from somewhere else?

VG: (3:29)
No, they were there. They've been there more than 100 years now. I mean, they were from this little, very small town near Bhatinda, and my grandfather's cousin was there in Bhatinda. So he came there to work with him - working in the business - my grandfather. So you can say yes, they did come for a very, very small village to Bhatinda. Bhatinda was a rather district town - they are bigger. And so that's what I know.

AA: (4:06)
And what were your parent’s names?

VG: (4:09)
Oh, my mom's name was Vidya – Vidyavati.

AA: (4:13)
It’s beautiful.

VG: (4:15)
Yeah, I know. And my father’s name was Amar – Amar Nath.

AA: (4:24)
And what was his work?

VG: (4:28)
Um, they - I'm saying they because he worked with his two brothers - they used to call commission agents. It’s a… business. They work with the farmers. Farmers bring their products to their shop, and they make a deal, and then they get some commission and they sell the products, like cotton, grains. Like that.

AA: (4:57)
If I remember correctly, Dr. Krishan’s father did something quite similar.

VG: (5:03)
Not as much as we were. I don't know, they may have done a little bit before. I don't know.

AA: (5:10)
Okay.

VG: (5:13)
But they didn't have a shop there. At that time when I met there was no shop there for them. Our shop is still there, and my brother is still doing it - my two brothers. Yeah.

AA: (5:25)
So many generations, then.

VG: (5:28)
Yeah, but not more. I don't think their children will do it.

AA: (5:35)
So do you think - just to connect to something that's happening right now in Punjab, with the farmers protests - does that affect your brothers and their business?

VG: (5:44)
Yeah, it will. It will. But just on a personal level, I think he's 72 now. You know, may not be working very long there. His business is small now. And so, I'm not sure - haven't really discussed that with him, just from that point of view. But I think the children - like our nephew, nieces - are looking into different areas where they could work now in case this does become a lot. They will divert into other areas. [inaudible] effect.

AA: (6:35)
And tell me a little bit more about your parents and what life was like at home with them.

VG: (6:44)
Oh, my mother was usually very busy at home working and cooking, cleaning. And also she was a very good seamstress - she used to sew clothes for all of us. And so that was it - she never did anything. She was not allowed to go to school, so she never had a formal education, but she did learn how to read the clock at home, and she could tell the time. And then… she was— she read— we tried to tell her to read the alphabet at home, but I don't think it amounted to anything. My father was already busy in, you know, at the shop. Just come home in the evening. We didn't - even though we were a large family, we actually didn't sit and discuss the issues or anything like that. I think just because— maybe five girls were first in order. The boys came late – the last. So we kind of hesitant to sit and talk with your father, you know? The girls didn't talk much. We didn't.

AA: (8:11)
You didn't feel like you knew him all that well?

VG: (8:15)
No, we knew him, but we didn't discuss our families issues… more personal issue, of course not. And we used to go to - I remember when I was little will go to the shop, and he'll go with us to book shop when we were in second, third grade. We needed to buy books, pencil, notebooks. So the shop was right across our shop, so we used to go there. He'll go with us. He did study, actually, high school. That was very unusual those days. But he did finish high school.

AA: (8:56)
And what is your mother tongue? What language did you speak at home?

VG: (8:59)
At home Punjabi. You know, Punjabi. Then there was school. We learned both Hindi and Punjabi, and English started in the fourth grade.

AA: (9:11)
And fourth grade. Okay. And were your elder sisters able to go to school?

VG: (9:17)
Yes. Everybody was able to. My eldest sister - she's 85 - she went to a four year college, local college. And after that she did bachelor in education, so she was a teacher for local school for a couple of years before she got married. Same is my younger - second one did the same thing. And she actually taught in her own town after when she got married. She taught many years - she was a principal of a middle school. And then later on she quit, but she did teach for a while.

AA: (9:58)
Yeah. So would you say that it was common when you were growing up for girls in Bhatinda to be able to go to school? Or did you feel that you had some privilege to be able to do that?

VG: (10:12)
No, we didn't have privilege in this- in monetary, financially or anything. Very much middle class, especially with a large family like that. But I think after independence, society had changed in our family connections. We knew lot of families who were very well off – much well off than us. There were three of them who were lawyers, and other are good businessmen. And so, you know, we knew other businessmen in town, their children – daughters – were going to school, so we were also wanting to go. And especially for high school, there was no question. We did go - we were allowed to go. We were- actually, we were encouraged to go to school by the time the 50s came around. Or after independence- or earlier. Independence came later, I was even younger. Even before. What had happened, my older sister tells me there was a Swami Dayanand who was a scholar of Hindi Hinduism, from Gujarat. He had a very big idea that we have to teach our girls. Women education was his agenda. And he became very famous - he started a one separate religious sect call Arya Samaj. He founded that, and we were taught that in school because our school was Arya Samaj school. Arya High School - All Girls Arya High School, that was the name given. And anyway, my sister tells me when she was young even - she's five years older than me - and he was the one, encourage the men, or the society in villages, that you must send girls to school.

AA: (12:28)
So it felt probably a very modern choice. You know, very sort of progressive.

VG: (12:33)
That's what she said. My sister said, “If he wasn't there, we won't have got an education.”

AA: (12:40)
I mean, that’s an interesting thought experiment, considering what your education opened up for you.

VG: (12:45)
Right.

AA: (12:49)
So did you have— I’m going to ask one more question about— a couple more questions about family, and then I want to return to your educational journey. Did you have other family living nearby or living in the household with you? Was it a joint family, or?

VG: (13:05)
Yeah, initially, it was, but 1953 - like when I was 10, 12 - we built a new house. That previous was very small, because the family was growing up. So we built a bigger house - a two story. And so we moved there in 53, and my youngest brother was born there. And when we moved there, then we it was our own family only. Five siblings- er six siblings. Before we had our uncle, his family there with us, and somehow managed, you know. But 53 we moved to this house.

AA: (13:52)
Do you feel like you were close with your family and your cousins as a child?

VG: (13:58)
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. We did two things together. Went to same school, and same, you know. When festivals came we went together, whatever happened.

AA: (14:13)
And so you mentioned that you were born before independence, and of course, Punjab was very dramatically affected by independence and partition. And then shortly afterwards, you also moved to a new house. So I'm curious about what your neighborhood was like, or what you remember about the town before, and then how things changed with partition.

VG: (14:44)
No, I remember my old friends when I was like, 6/7/8/9. I remember in the evening we used to play hide and seek in the street, and the boys and girls all together, we used to play that. And then I know the neighbors. I remember neighbors. But um…. what was your question?

AA: (15:12)
Well so, what was the neighborhood like?

VG: (15:17)
It was very, very middle class. We had a few shops. The people who used to make toys with the clay - I don't know what you call that. They're the two, three families and one of the girls I used to play with them. I'll go during the day, sit and watch them, how she's made- how they make that. But in front of her house, there was a big, huge grounds with a one house, with a two story, that was owned by a Sardarji – rich Sardarji from the village. He owned that whole area. And he used to come there, live there, come there ready. It was like a royal, you know, people, when they used to come there. I think they had a car. I think they used to come in a car, I think. But that ground was kind of open. There was a big, large peepal tree, and we used to put the- hang the swing there. We used to play there on the swing, because at home, we couldn't have a swing. So… and then we also- at that time we used to raise cattle, too. We had a cow and a buffalo at home for milk. So it was completely different lifestyle. Very, very village type.

AA: (16:53)
And then that changed when you move to the new house?

VG: (16:56)
We- Yeah, it moved. We- it changed. It was a different kind of street, not the same people. The new street was more people who were tailors. There were several houses they used to stitch clothes, and embroidery. Embroidery! They used to do hand embroidery, tailors. And one was- one family had a watch shop. We used to call them - in Hindi we used to call their name by that they're the one who sells the watch. [in Hindi] we used to call them. So they're a different kind of people. But… what else was it? So, ours was the house- was the biggest there, at that time. We built the biggest house - two story with big balcony, second floor. You could see that. And then all the five girls were married there in the house. Yeah, at that time reading we were done at home. So we did that.

AA: (18:06)
And do you have any memories from the partition? Did it affect Bhatinda? Did things change?

VG: (18:15)
It did. One thing more, near our house – old house – there was a area. I don't know who used to live before, because I was not- I was younger other. But after partition, I remember a lot of refugee families have to come - they occupied those houses. That I know, because then they were there. I grew up and older, and then those people used to live there, so we used to know- came to know them, and so that I remember. But I don't remember too many sad things. One, maybe two… But I remember I was sitting in the shop in the back, and one woman was walking naked breast, shaved head. Was like a psychiatric patient was walking. During the… maybe more was still going on that time. It was curfew. [inaudible] Was very sad. Very sad.

AA: (19:26)
So if there were abandoned properties that the refugees came to, then those had been the houses of Muslims before who left?

VG: (19:35)
Must be. Must be, I think.

AA: (19:39)
But you don't have a sense of that- the memory of them being there, when you were-

VG: (19:43)
No, I was not friends with them. I was young enough. I think they were a little farther from our house? Next street, and a little bit away from. So I didn't know them. Maybe my older sister may know, but I didn't know them.

AA: (20:00)
And you were quite young - only five or six years old.

VG: (20:03)
Oh yes. Yes, yes.

AA: (20:06)
Yeah. Man, same age as my dad… So did religion or faith play much of a role in your life when you were a child?

VG: (20:19)
Yeah, I wonder about that. Not really, no. I don't know what I was. I didn't know what I thought about myself, what religion is, what God is. I never thought of that. Um… only thing I now can say about myself, I was not very- didn't have much confidence. Oh yeah… and uh, though I tried to participate in different things, to get, you know. I had that desire, but I don't think I didn't excel. We used to have some sports at that school - 100 meter race or some. So I used to participate, and sometime even getting uh- we used to have a- That was in college, though. Now [inaudible] in school they used to have [inaudible] contests or speech contest, I think. I tried to spell, but I wasn't good in that.

AA: (21:27)
I'm so surprised to hear you say that.

VG: (21:30)
[inaudible] It was drama. [inaudible] I wanted. My sister did much better - my older sister. They used to do plays a lot.

AA: (21:40)
I'm surprised to hear you say that, because it seems to me that choosing to go into medicine must have taken a lot of confidence and motivation at that time.

VG: (21:51)
Motivation to maybe to study, but that was not my plan. It just happened – it came into my lap. How it happened, because by the time I went to ninth grade in school, they start teaching science classes. They were not teaching before - they added science, and I happened take it. So then, once you take science or chemistry and philosophy- okay chemistry and biology, then once you’ve matriculated you finish 10th grade, then you go to college, then you have option of taking pre-med or pre engineering. Medical or non-medical, they call. So I took a pre-med, because I took biology and chemistry, and that's how it happened. It wasn't my- actually, as such, I- Once I went to college I guess I did want to go to medical school, but it was not um… I don't know. Was not the ill desire, but it was more for social thing, because, you know, girls are going to medical school they have little more… status. So you do that. But uh… I don't think I- My environment was not like that, that I was motivated to go to school – medical school. It just happened. Then I pursued it then, you know, once I went off to college, then I pursued it. I did grad admission. First year I didn't get, second year I tried I got it. Yeah. So… after that it just… once you become, then you pursue it I guess.

AA: (23:58)
Do you feel looking back that it was the right choice for you?

VG: (24:05)
I don't- I just don’t know. I'm not very sure that… “Oh, yes, I wanted to do it. I'm glad I did.” No.

AA: (24:18)
Did you find a career in medicine to be fulfilling?

VG: (24:27)
Because, see, I never practice in India, just here, so whatever I learned here it is more of um… [murmuring to self] what did you do… like more of a job or? Plus, because I was… uh young, raising children, so work wise. I don't know what I was thinking. I didn't know. I would just go, doing whatever came in my way. I just did it without much questioning myself.

AA: (25:03)
Mm hm. And it seems to me, because my understanding is that you practiced in OB-GYN.

VG: (25:12)
Yeah, I did. I did. But again, I know it's really my- this is just- I’m telling my personal feeling. I know outer impression is maybe much different.

AA: (25:25)
No, that's why I'm asking.

VG: (25:27)
[inaudible] My own, yeah. So I… I was able to practice, and I did. And it wasn't that easy, because of… I think it- there were very many factors in the practice of medicine where OB-GYN was concerned, but I think, finally, it all depends upon the person. Because I felt, myself, a little bit less confident what I was doing, which is actually not good idea to say that. I didn't know what I was doing. And not that way - patients were okay. They were happy. But what I was saying- I want to say that is uh… I don't know what I… What I'm saying, in my circumstances, I don't want to blame the circumstances. I think, if I was- had it handled differently, I would have done different. Or I- maybe I would have… you can see even accomplished more. But I didn't. But again, as I said, there are many factors. But I don't want to say, “Oh, because of that I didn’t do it.” No, but I don't want to… go in that direction. I don't want to think that way. Because all depends on the person. In the same circumstances another person would be able to do- utilize opportunities in many different way. And then, later on then… I think that was personal motivation. I think I didn't have assertiveness and motivation. Key if I wanted- then what should- I didn't have a vision of myself. What I want, where I want to be - that wasn't there.

AA: (27:38)
Yeah. So I think what you're describing sounds like ambition - that you didn't see education as a way to get you someplace else, but that it was a process that you were in, maybe.

VG: (27:57)
Yeah. [inaudible] Yeah, kinda

AA: (28:00)
Did… Once you started on the science track, and you started going in this path towards practicing medicine, how did other people in your family and in your community respond to that? Were there other women also doing medical track?

VG: (28:22)
Not in our family, no. Not in our family it wasn't. No, they were very proud of it, but the only thing, my- I still feel my own- I didn't make use of my own status or education. I think it was more of… your own… emotional mindset what you are in. Because immediately I came here - I think that was even more… you became more… not as confident, you can say. We- even though we learned all the new things, you know. Inside I thought, “Oh, I needed to be better and better. I need to wanted to be better and better.” Maybe that's why I felt that.

AA: (29:32)
So it sounds like once you came to the United States it shifted, maybe, your outlook and even your relationship to your work. So do you- did you have to repeat some parts of your medical training once you were here, or how did the…?

VG: (29:49)
No, I did the same like anybody else. You have to do the training here - the residency. That's all I did. Nothing else. Residency - every foreign medical graduate have to do, so I just follow the same. Nothing extra, or repetition, or anything. Just three years of residency, and then you take the license exam. And then I did actually post-graduation, too.

AA: (30:22)
Did you also do your residency in Rochester?

VG: (30:26)
Yes. So then I- after that you- after residency, you take exams. Then you become a- like a specialist, you know, [inaudible]. So I did that right away, first year time. And I was able to finish it. Finish it off.

AA: (30:46)
What attracted you to OB-GYN?

VG: (30:49)
I think in India, mostly women used to do OB-GYN at that time.

AA: (30:57)
But thinking about the story you told of your own birth - home delivery. The medical system of birth in this country is so different.

VG: (31:07)
Oh yes. Yeah. That's the story of all foreign medical graduates.

AA: (31:17)
So how did you experience that when you first came to Rochester? I'm curious what that transition was like for you.

[long pause]

VG: (31:36)
It was a lot of a learning curve, you know. My sister was there - younger sister was already there in Rochester.

AA: (31:43)
Why?

VG: (31:44)
She had come - she got married and she had come a year, six months before.

AA: (31:49)
Oh, that's nice.

VG: (31:51)
So she had real estate. We came to State a week or two - week with her before we got our apartment near the hospital. And then we also have a younger son- oh no older son, first son. He was two and a half.

AA: (32:09)
When – He was born in India.

VG: (32:11)
Oh, then he was born in Delhi.

AA: (32:16)
Um, and so what do you remember about arriving in Rochester?

VG: (32:22)
Oh I remember a week, because we were staying- Oh no, we had a two week long vacation we took. On the way we stopped by Japan for five days, from Japan we came to West Coast, Los Angeles, and then came to New York, Rochester. We arrived on the 17th of June 1970. Oh, I still used to wear sari, had a long hair, and then I had stayed with my sister. Used to remember, because it was summer we used to like ice cream. [inaudible] like ice cream. All the- after all that big journey we used to sleep a lot during the day, you know, jet lag. So I stayed home for first year - I had to take ECFMG exam before I could apply for residency. I did that… first year, I did that, that only following 71. Six months later, I got the residency after the exam was done.

AA: (33:34)
And were there other Indian doctors in the hospital?

VG: (33:39)
Oh uh, yeah, when I did residency? Yeah, yes, yes. Because in 70, there was influx of doctors, because the immigration shortage of doctors, the United State Government had allowed the residency to come. They had no residence available in the hospitals. So that way you could get a job anywhere, almost, where you wanted. Since we were in Rochester we just stayed there. There were doctors- other doctors. Women came from other city. In my residency time there was one from China, one Filipino, European, one was from Delhi, [inaudible] other two Indian girls. They were there.

AA: (34:27)
I guess I didn't expect it to be so international. That's very- did you think that made it easier?

VG: (34:33)
[inaudible] from Lebanon. One boy was from Lebanon, one was Philippine. One was Chinese- Taiwan, I think. Taiwan. And three Indian girls. We were six. Three boys were different, then three girls, and girls were all Indian. At that time.

AA: (34:52)
Do you think that made it easier?

VG: (34:54)
No. No, it didn't matter. You just have to do the job. What, you know.

AA: (35:02)
And then I want to ask a little bit also about the choice to come to the United States, and then we can talk a little bit more about your career. But, when I interviewed your husband, I asked about your marriage, and he said, “I knew I wanted to marry a doctor.” What were your feelings before your marriage?

VG: (35:22)
I had no feeling. I never thought of… thought of anything. It was kind of expected, so you just met and get married. Doesn't matter who it is. But at the same time, you know, that was the society. Indian doctor- woman doctor will marry a doctor because of the status. So that was what happened.

AA: (35:55)
And it sounded like your marriage came together quite quickly. What do you remember about that?

VG: (36:03)
No, I don't remember much details.

AA: (36:11)
I guess it—was it a big occasion? Lots of family there or…?

VG: (36:15)
Huh? Yeah, family was there. Yes. All family was there. Only my- unless it was- yes, all family were there. Yes. Because… where else? All we live together nearby, and they were all together.

AA: (36:35)
And then he went back to Kashmir after your marriage. Is that right?

VG: 36:41 Just for I think a year or so.

AA: (36:43)
And you stayed in Bathinda?

VG: (36:46)
No, no, I was doing house job in Patiala.

AA: (36:49)
Oh, in Patiala. Okay. What is a house job?

VG: (36:53)
Just like a residency here - we call internship. I end up in - they call house job. House residency. A resident job. I did six months OBG-YN there, and six months pediatrics.

AA: (37:10)
And then-

VG: (37:11)
[inaudible] And when I got married, then I quit.

AA: (37:16)
Okay. And then you spent some time together in India before coming to the United States. How did you feel about the choice to come to the US?

VG: (37:28)
I, again, didn't think that much about it, because I wasn't exposed to any other… my- I wasn't really worldly wise and ambitious person. So I kinda didn't think of much - key I was excited to go or anything. I just followed. And even though my professor didn't want me to go, because they wanted me to just work there - take a job there, when I did a post-graduation – because… but then, since… finally made a decision to come, because then I had little baby, child –he was two by that time I finish, so…

AA: (38:20)
Did you have any expectations about how life would change?

VG: (38:28)
No, as I say I am very weird—strange personality. In my—I'm talking about my mind, not outward. I didn't think of that much. “Ki oh, I need to look up or read.” I don't think I read anything about it. I was very naive… So, I was not very good in spoken English at that time. Even though all exam, everything was in English, I could write it and everything, but spoken English was not fluent. I had to kind of take the time to be getting good at it. So initially, when I was home I would be hesitant to talk to on the phone, you know, initially. So that was my little bit of… weakness. You can see… uh inhibition. I wasn't really good in spoken English at that time. Because we never spoke at home. So that was just read and write. So that's how I- once you start working, you start talking more, I think you get to better at it.

AA: (40:01)
I can remember learning Hindi, and how proud I was the first time I had a phone conversation in Hindi.

VG: (40:09)
Oh, it's [inaudible].

AA: (40:10)
Very… it makes you feel you've accomplished something.

VG: (40:14)
Of course! New language is always… You know, I don't know too much Hindi words...I don't know all…. Conversational is fine, but not really, uh, real Hindi language - the words they use.

AA: (40:36)
Listening to the news, or reading the newspaper… I can't keep up.

VG: (40:43)
Yeah, the words they use is hard. Like, and especially even political words - in politics they use? Those are hard to understand.

AA: (40:54)
Yeah, I agree. Um, how did the coming to the United States – and with both you and your husband working in medical field – how did that shape your marriage?

VG: (41:10)
Was okay. It wasn't easy. So just, I dunno. [laughs]

AA: (41:20)
And especially raising, you know, your two boys - did you feel… How did you find the balance of your professional life and your parenthood?

VG: (41:36)
I just did it. I don't know. I don't think I can recall and put into words what I did, what I not. Only some time I remember my mistakes. You know, that I should have done it this way, I should have done better, I should have done this way. Those are the only things I remember.

AA: (42:00)
I'm the mother of a four year old, and I can really sympathize with that right now. Every day, at the end of the day, I look back at all the things I could have done better. But, I look at your children and they're both extremely successful. So I think in retrospect, you've done a lot right for them.

VG: (42:21)
Yeah, I'm fortunate that this turned out this way. It's not because of me.

AA: (42:29)
I doubt that.

VG: (42:31)
They have their own destiny.

AA: (42:36)
Shaped I'm sure by their mother who set a great example for them… [pause] What do you think was the most important thing that shaped your trajectory once you came to the United States? I know you were in Rochester, you were in Cleveland, and you were in Wichita. What was the most important turning point for you?

VG: (43:13)
Turning point in what?

AA: (43:17)
I think maybe in your career, and in finding a sense of your role.

VG: (43:27)
Yeah, once I think I started private practice, then I needed to learn many more things. And so I used to go to a lot of meetings to learn procedures, and work for practice. So just stay busy with that - we didn't go, as such, very many vacation. I just go for medical meeting. But then I will go to India every two, three years. Every four years I'll go to India. Just go home, stay with the family, come back. So I did do that. But in between only meetings - I think I didn't go for five, six years.

AA: (44:12)
Did you take the boys with you?

VG: (44:20)
Well, I did go - in 74 - I took my older son with me. He was- because Rajeev was not born yet, so I took with him with me. I went for a month, but after that we went all together. But then again, after in the 80s when we came to Wichita we didn't go regularly. I would say even after Wichita I didn't go for six years. And then, they grew up. Raj- San- was already- older son was already college… 18. In ‘85 he went to college. So he- they actually- we sent both of them to India in 80… summer vacation, ‘86.

AA: (45:09)
How did they respond to it?

VG: (45:11)
Yeah, they went to the- they got sick of their summers, and so they stayed only week and a half, came back. [laughs] We went to Taj Mahal—we stayed in a very big suite there actually. We showed them as much as they could, and one of our nephew took them to Shimla. At the rail station. So we tried to spend time with them, but then he got a thing - sick, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea. So they just wanted to come back home. Okay. Um, no we didn't take them like I see- I have other- I known other families that took their children every year to India to spend time with their family in the summer. And we didn't do that. And we didn't even teach them Hindi at home, so it was all due to us, you know.

AA: (46:10)
Do you think those were conscious choices, or just the circumstances you were busy?

VG: (46:15)
Both. Both! There was not many opportunities in town, also. Plus, interest at home wasn't there as much. So they both lost the opportunity, didn't learn Hindi, you know? Raj, San, both. Yeah.

AA: (46:36)
Um, you were one- when you moved to Wichita, I have the sense that there were only a few women there who were OBG-YN, and you were one of them. Can you tell me about that?

VG: (46:49)
There was one, actually. She also was retiring or something - or retired a year later. Then I was the only one. Stayed for a few years, till more residents start coming after, you know, five, seven years. Then they the come. Yes, I was. I was.

AA: (47:09)
So how did you… how did you…

VG: (47:12)
That's what I'm saying - I wasn't very… um, assertive, or courageous, and outgoing to meet people, because all our men doctor. The only other problem was, with me, I wasn't that communicative, and it was not my town, you know? If you stay in your own town where you are trained, you have much more relationship. These all white men were all new to me. And I was not all that… uh… bold enough to be equal to them, or thinking that, “Oh I could do it.” So that's also prohibit- inhibit my… you know.

AA: (48:08)
Did you have any commitments to any particular communities there? Or, in what communities were you working in Wichita?

VG: (48:17)
No, I was not committed. It just to happen after several—Vietnam War, a lot of Vietnamese came. They started coming to me. So I deliver a lot of their babies to [inaudible] needs were. This a lot of Vietnamese patients I used to have. Like, they were like in the end of- In 70s they came there - 80s, 90s, 2000s. We were- there were like 10,000 families there. Indian families were hardly 200. And I was likely socially active - I was president of the Indian Association. I was, you know, working with the Indian Association from very beginning – 80s. Even though I was practicing, but I was also doing this part. Yeah. So I did involve myself with the Indian community a lot.

AA: (49:20)
Why was that important to you?

VG: (49:25)
Oh, that was because naturally you relate to them - relate to them culturally. We used to have a social gathering – we have go out for dinner, we invite them at home. We did that a lot when we were young. Children were young. Then we did that.

AA: (49:47)
So were most of your friends from the Indian community?

VG: (49:52)
Uh… that's uh, yeah. They were mostly from that. I didn't have any somehow… close friendship with any American families. It's very strange. I think, partly, the neighborhood in 82 - we bought a big house in a very uppity neighborhood. Big house, and everybody had large, big houses, big, wide road. But people were not there friendly, so I actually missed that. I wished the neighborhood was better. And so, we probably just kind of stage secluded. In as far as neighborhood is concerned, but you can always go out - drive out and go visit friends. But not in the neighborhood. If you have a neighbor, then it's much better. And then again, if you think, you know, a person who wants to, maybe I would have taken more initiative, and then meet them, you can say that, so I can't just hold others responsible.

AA: (51:09)
But also, in that kind of place, your family had different kinds of connections, you know. Maybe the people in the neighborhood weren't so friendly, it didn't feel like a good- like a safe place to reach out and make friends. You had a big community in- among the Indian community. Did you have cultural events, and Indian Association would hold festivals and things?

VG: (51:36)
We did, yeah. I mean, we used to celebrate Diwali. I used to be part of it every year, almost. That's why we had the Association. I was the officer, then president a couple of times during that different years. Yeah, we- I did participate. Yes.

AA: (51:58)
And so even though your boys didn't grew up learning Hindi, they grew up around other Indians.

VG: (52:08)
Yes and no. Because, we, you know- They were in school. Actually, Raj never had Indian friend in high school, where he went for 12 years. Same school from kindergarten to high school. Not even a single Indian friend.

AA: (52:29)
Why?

VG: (52:30)
Yeah, nobody was there in his class, and he just didn't go out of that circle. San had one or two, but rest was all American. And Raj had all white, American friends. So he never went out. Certainly, because there was nobody in the class.

AA: (52:51)
Right. So that's a big generational difference between your friends and your friend group, and your children's friends.

VG: (52:58)
That’s why when we were actually- when he grew up, like teenager, he never went with us.

AA: (53:05)
To those events. But then when he tells the story, he says how motivated he was after university, he went to India, and he made these videos and—

VG: (53:18)
Oh yeah, he did that. Yeah, that was a big, big undertaking he did.

AA: (53:25)
How did you feel about him suddenly taking that interest? How did that affect you?

VG: (53:31)
No, it didn't affect me. I appreciated that he's doing it, I just was a little bit concerned that he stay healthy. He got sick very much in the middle of it. That's why I went there for two weeks - to visit him.

AA: (53:48)
Oh, you went?

VG: (53:50)
Yeah, he had very severe diarrhea and pain, and so I think… So, I just, in July ‘97 I know I went there. But otherwise, it was very nice. Everybody appreciate, you know? Nobody else had done that before. You know, so he met everybody, he did… But it was summer, was not a very good time, weather wise.

AA: (54:32)
I'm trying to think. Summer of ‘97… I was not there, but maybe ‘98 I was. But um… [clears throat] By being in the US, I think you were able to build a career in private practice, and in Wichita, but what did you… what did you give up by not being in India to raise your family?

VG: (55:08)
Give up was only family support. That was the biggest thing.

AA: (55:20)
Did your sister remain in the United States or did she go back to India?

VG: (55:23)
No, she's still here. She's in Plano for 50 years. Yeah. I have, actually, older sister also came back later in 80s. She came – she moved also. She had three daughters, and all are very well settled, and very happy. One is in San Francisco, and other one is in Minneapolis. Third one is in Whittier, California. She's a pathologist on… uh, Memorial Hospital there. She’s the chairman of the department.

AA: (56:04)
So you were a trendsetter in your family. There are other doctors who followed you.

VG: (56:11)
Yeah, but not very many, only one or two. Because my older brother- sister, the daughter, he was a doctor. My older sister’s husband was a doctor.

AA: (56:26)
It seems like your whole family kind of shifted because of that.

VG: (56:29)
Then only she's only one? No, then second - her second daughter has two children who are doctors. Second generation became here in this country. Yes. Even in India, I have nephew, nieces there – they’re doctors there. The secondary generation did come. Not our generation. My cousins - my first cousins – nobody. All were married and homemakers. Then children came forward.

AA: (57:03)
Yeah. It makes a difference. To see… to see that leadership in your family, you know, then you think it's possible.

VG: (57:13)
Also my nephew, nieces [inaudible]. Mostly ITs or doctors.

AA: (57:20)
What do you think were the most gratifying experiences you had in Wichita?

VG: (57:33)
That I was able to practice, you know. Independent, private practice for so many years. [pause] And then I was also able to do, later on, when, you know… I actually practice in the last seven, eight years I was doing only GYN – no OB. I did no OB. Then I had more time. so I start volunteering in a very many organization, like the Red Cross, Dress for Success, and I was on the board at both places, and then something else. So I start doing my time like that.

AA: (58:28)
Why were those volunteer experiences so meaningful?

VG: (58:35)
I think I do feel good to do something for others. And even I actually joined Toastmasters - I wanted to get better at that. I participated for 10 years. Yeah, I gave a lot of my time there, that time. Because they have a meeting, they have a very strict, set schedule. I was president two, three times during those 10 years… of the club… and fulfill all the formalities. But finally I gave up. I got tired. Then I decided I had to move anyway – ’13. I had given up a year before, then I moved.

AA: (59:28)
Yeah, I noticed that when I was doing some research about your career - that you had had leadership, you know, in so many organizations. And National Board of American Association of Physicians, and Indian Association president and, you know, president of- vice president of the Global Organization of People of Indian Origin.

VG: (59:52)
Yeah. President [inaudible]. Yeah, uh huh.

AA: (59:54)
So it seems that for somebody who - you describe yourself as not having a lot of ambition. You have taken on a lot of leadership roles in your community and in your profession.

VG: (1:00:05)
Yeah, I did I did. I still don't have that kind of assertiveness to do things. Get things done I want to.

AA: (1:00:24)
But did you feel you were effective in the roles that you had?

VG: (1:00:28)
Yes, I- because I kind of tried to work hard and get things done. So I do. But I think, in reality, I would say communication was not the best. Not just speaking English. It just… it takes a lot more to conduct meeting, and uh… so…

AA: (1:01:05)
Did you have any other hobbies or outside interests beyond your, you know, the South Asian community and your profession? Were there other things that you put your energy into?

VG: (1:01:19)
No. I don't think I did anything else. That was good enough.

AA: (1:01:30)
It seems like that work within the community, whether it was the South Asian community or even the Vietnamese community, was important. Do you think that was in part because of your own experience of migration - that you could connect well with another community of migrants and refugees?

VG: (1:01:51)
No, it was not really due to me. It just happened. Opportunity came, they wanted a woman doctor, you know, woman doctor, so I just had the opportunity. It's not like I did it. So… so that- so there are a few- two Vietnamese family physicians, so they used to refer patients to me. That's how I build that practice.

AA: (1:02:25)
So that's a nice kind of network.

VG: (1:02:28)
Oh, yes. We have, actually- even though I was solo practice, you know, OB-GYN you need somebody to cover you when you go out of town and all that. We had five solo practitioner - we work as a group, but solo practice. One was from Egypt, one- two were from Philippine—no three! Three were from Filipino, one from Egypt, and me. All were four men - I was the only woman. But we covered each other – we covered each other. I can just say, “Oh, I'm leaving this week. Can you cover me?” We had that understanding. We did that. “Oh, I'm going to India for two weeks. Can you cover me?” So we were able to practice that way. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to practice. That won't be able to go anywhere.

AA: (1:03:22)
Yeah, that seems quite important. Babies get born whenever they feel like it, right?

VG: (1:03:28)
That’s right. So I was able to do that, which was a blessing. But I don't think I will do it again.

AA: (1:03:40)
Why not?

VG: (1:03:42)
Because of the other things in life.

AA: (1:03:49)
Um, did you ever experience, after you came to United States, any forms of prejudice or discrimination that stand out to?

VG: (1:04:00)
Yeah, I think more of in during practice time. You feel, you know, you feel some opportunity or, you know, or… other colleagues, how will they communicate with you or talk? Mostly in that part. Yes, there it was there. Even medical society - local medical society had that, you know. Even medical society local, it was like 100 years old. They never had even a black doctor president till in 2000. Late- much, much later then, when doctor was made president. But a woman – no woman doctor was there till much, much later in 2000. So it was like that.

AA: (1:04:56)
So, it seems like what you're saying is it was built into the systems – not so much that someone would say something to you personally, but that the system didn't give you- [indistinct talking from Vimal] Didn’t give you opportunity. And I hear you saying how hard it is to find community when all the other doctors are- all the other OB-GYN doctors are white men, and then there’s you.

VG: (1:05:23)
So these were-- these five were only foreigners. That's why we work like a group.

AA: (1:05:30)
So all five of you teamed up.

VG: (1:05:33)
Right.

AA: (1:05:34)
Like the United Nations.

VG: (1:05:37)
[laughs] Yeah. We covered each other, and that… yeah. So that probably were it. That two- all are retired, but two or three are still in town – Wichita. One moved out to Vegas, and I came here.

AA: (1:05:56)
What motivated the move to New York?

VG: (1:06:00)
Mostly was Rajeev and Monica. You know, the kids were very small, we- once we decided to close our practice. So, is better to be near them rather than California. Even though San wanted us to go there, but then I thought it would be much less useful to be there. So, even though, you know, it was attractive - weather was better and everything - but here I think they needed more help. And then also Raj happened to find a job for us.

AA: (1:06:40)
So you continued to practice once you shifted to New York.

VG: (1:06:43)
Practiced outpatient. No, nothing like emergency deliveries. Nothing. It was actually very fulfilling to me. That's what I would have done, even in Wichita if I stayed. Just do outpatient. That's all. And that's what I was doing, so we did it for six years. So he found a job for us, so I thought, “Well, we can sit here at home,” you know? We don't know anybody, so we didn't want to sit home and get bored. So the job was- turned out to be useful.

AA: (1:07:21)
And how has the pandemic affected you and your work?

VG: (1:07:24)
Well, we lost our jobs. In last May, because they downsized, and then we- the job got terminated. And that's how it happened, but that’s the right, I think, best thing. We needed to stop anyway.

AA: (1:07:46)
Things were pretty tough in New York in May of last year.

VG: (1:07:50)
Yeah. With the lockdown in March, after that, they paid us for April. We did work from remote little bit. Then May decided they can’t continue. Okay, you will be for a little while - let me connect my charger needs to be put in.

AA: (1:08:06)
Okay, good. Let's- sure, no problem.

[long pause]

VG: (1:09:01)
Okay, so I'm in business.

AA: (1:09:06)
Sorry, I'm also back.

VG: (1:09:09)
Okay, yeah. I’m connected. [pause] How long have you been in Philadelphia?

AA: (1:09:17)
I have been here… since 2012. So I did my graduate work at the University of Texas, and I finished there in 2012, and then I came here. So, I basically am not from this part of the country, but I'm learning to adapt to it. I think, also, I would have preferred to be someplace where the weather was a little bit less cold. But… um… but it's a nice place to live. And my sister lives in Brooklyn, so I get to go up to her from time to time.

VG: (1:10:01)
Yes. What does she do?

AA: (1:10:05)
Pardon?

VG: (1:10:06)
What does she do?

AA: (1:10:07)
She's an attorney. But she just became a mother, so she has a four month old baby. So she's been away from work now since August, and we were able to self-isolate, and then take COVID tests, and spend about three weeks together around the holidays, which was such a blessing to be able to hold that baby, because I hadn't been able to see them at all since he was born. So, that was really, really special.

AA: (1:10:47)
Well, I have just a few more questions for you, and these are the more personal ones, I guess. We've talked a lot about your career, and your moves, and your education. Where do you consider home?

VG: (1:11:13)
[pause] I think I consider India as my home.

AA: (1:11:18)
What does home mean for you?

VG: (1:11:25)
If I go to India now I'll have my home. [laugh] I’ll buy my home, and not stay with anybody. But, just a visitor. [pause] But as is - as such – I have spent 50 years here. You know, I like the country, I like to be loyal to the country and do something good for here. Not everything for India. But I know here as well. And I've been doing that, and I do that now and then. Little, very small token. So I feel fortunate that I was able to come here, and see the world. And I also feel fortunate now to live in these days, because - even though pandemic – but… there are so much… technology has come, yeah. And the privilege to learn and see so much happening in this world at this age. So I think I have to be very grateful what all I have seen in my life. Children doing well, and my same- my old sister- so very, very fortunate all my sister families and everything, is really you can't ask for better. So… you know, that’s all you can ask in life. And I am healthy, and able to go walk, and go- we go near Monica’s- you know Monica?

AA: (1:13:36)
I don't.

VG: (1:13:37)
Oh - Raj’s wife. Her parents also moved here. Two and a half years ago. They have their own apartment, so we have three families in one block. So her mom and I - we go grocery shopping every week. Sometime Trader Joe's, some days Whole Foods. And so we do that, and all year we've been doing that since everything started. We haven't, you know, we didn't caught that. We just took our own precaution - mask and they say - and so far so good, you know. I'm amazed that we've been able to do that much.

AA: (1:14:25)
Good to have that connection.

VG: (1:14:27)
[inaudible] is all, “Why don't you get delivered?” But uh, when my legs work, I can walk, why do I have to get to deliver?

AA: (1:14:37)
Great. What about your parents?

VG: (1:14:42)
My parents are no more living. My- lost my mom in ’88 – it’s almost 32 years. Father died- passed away in 2000, which is more than 20 years. So… what would you like to know about them?

AA: (1:15:03)
Well, did you go back?

VG: (1:15:06)
When?

AA: (1:15:07)
When they passed, or were you-?

VG: (1:15:08)
No, they- I didn’t go at— right at that time. No. I saw my father with my sister's - actually we went in March - when he was sick. He had developed prostate cancer, but diagnosed much later had metastasized. So he passed away in June, three months later. My mother I didn’t see. I saw her only ’86, she passed away ’88. So otherwise, we were going back and forth. My other sister- my older sister stayed there long. She used to live there months together, and so all sisters were visiting.

AA: (1:15:58)
And did you ever have a sense of how your parents- Did your parents ever visit you in the US?

VG: (1:16:05)
No, they didn’t.

AA: (1:16:08)
How did they- how did they feel about you having this experience?

VG: (1:16:13)
My family was not very communicative. They never express their feeling. So my youngest- she's a younger sister who came here first, and she's the one in Plano. So that- ‘69 she came. So no, by that time, people had gotten more, much more education, you know, about America and all that. Because her husband was in America – he went to India to get married. Yeah. So after that, and actually, we came- we left India. So they were very, you know, proud of it. But as such, as I say, we just didn't sit and talk about that in our home. Even- we didn't discuss personal thing, even among our sisters. It's very, kind of, you can say ‘strange’, or ‘unique’ or whatever. We don’t discuss that much personal thing, because it's so emotional... I don't… Plus, it's good that I don't remember many things in the past. [laughs] Because childhood was not all that glorified childhood, in a sense, you know. But it was very good. We were- get the chance to go to school. We were just busy in school and home, school and home, and that was it. That’s good. We didn't even watch Indian movies. We didn't go till much later in life. I don't think I went even till high school... Yeah.

AA: (1:18:10)
What about now?

VG: (1:18:12)
I don't go now, either.

AA: (1:18:15)
Do you enjoy Indian movies?

VG: (1:18:19)
Actually… very few. Very few. I quit watching Indian movies many years ago. So now, completely, no. I didn't like when the- just too long and boring push in between, so… But, I love Indian music. I listen to songs. I listen to music. Not only that - Indian music is the best in my view.

AA: (1:18:51)
What style do you like?

VG: (1:18:53)
More softer melodious, like Lata Mangeshkar type. So I like Indian music - that's my best choice. But not, essentially, movies. The songs I know, they are from the movies.

AA: (1:19:11)
Yeah. I like music more.

VG: (1:19:14)
I have attachment to the songs. And you know what kind of scene they show, and all that. So it is—I think our Indians—I don't know, there's so much talent. I don't—I really admire.

AA: (1:19:32)
Yeah, same. My first car was named Lata - for Lata Mangeshkar.

VG: (1:19:38)
Oh, really?

AA: (1:19:39)
Yeah. [laughs]

VG: (1:19:41)
That is a dedication.

AA: (1:19:45)
I used to love- I used to play Lata in the car all the time. When I grew up my father used to always play Kishore, he loved Kishore.

VG: (1:19:54)
Yeah, me too. I have the two song. And that's why, in ’85, when I was in Wichita, Lata Mangeshkar came to Houston.

AA: (1:20:04)
No way.

VG: (1:20:05)
Yeah! And with Kishore Kumar, no not Kishore, it was Mukesh at that time. And what happened - I flew from Wichita to Dallas.

AA: (1:20:16)
Got your sister.

VG: (1:20:18)
We drove to Houston - they had friends living there. We had the tickets, and then we went and saw them.

AA: (1:20:24)
That's amazing. What was it like?

VG: (1:20:27)
She's come so close, and I don't know when I will get a chance to see her. You know, in India, you don't get to see anything, so I thought I better go now, and I did that. That was my one adventure.

AA: (1:20:40)
That's amazing. That's a great adventure.

VG: (1:20:44)
I did that. I remember. So… we did that.

AA: (1:20:49)
Well, that's good. I was gonna ask you, when in your life have you been happiest? That sounds like at least one of those days.

VG: (1:20:58)
Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah, I went to that. I went there. I did that. But at the same time, I don't play much music at home. I don't know, I think with the work at that time, I don't know. But if you have a habit you do that whether you're busy or not, right? But no, I didn't. I don't. If I have to be reminded, either I happen to see on the internet or other thing then they turn it on. But now, for the last few years here, I have been falling for one spiritual organization.

AA: (1:21:44)
Ah, what is that?

VG: (1:21:45)
It’s uh, Brahma Kumaris? I don't know if you heard of it.

AA: (1:21:50)
No.

VG: (1:21:53)
We have a center right on 32nd Street in Manhattan, so I go there. Not now - it's closed. But before I used to go once or twice a week. So when you read their history, their philosophy, what they believe in – it’s a very revolutionary knowledge. And I don't know where I was all my life. I didn't know anything about them in India. I lived there almost close to 29 years - I'd never heard of them. It was so- I was so ignorant. When I was there in Wichita they didn't have, and Rochester didn't have. Rochester, I was there that was not a good time, anyway. I just came. But anyway, I didn't hear till seven years ago.

AA: (1:22:45)
So what is it about- what draws you to it?

VG: (1:22:49)
You know, we used to have Indian program on the TV, and… it’s um… this is a women led organization. Women are the leaders. And one of them used to come interview- her program used to come on the TV every evening, so we listen to her. She was being interviewed by another person, and then she'll give, mostly… she'll give- those time topics who are used to be more… there—how you get rid of your anger. How do you do that? You- how you raise children. You never, never get angry with them, never show any- So she has many good parenting this thing, but that was too late for me. No, but the whole thing- The philosophy I read later. That time I actually didn't know that much. We watched only a year or two, then we moved. So then I started reading the books about it. It is a more of a spiritual journey - a spiritual organization. They have a center in Rajasthan. Mount Abu is the place, and it's a mountain- on the mountain. It's called World Spiritual University. Godly service, they call it. And they believe in, of course, you have to believe in God to understand their philosophy. If you don't believe in God, then you won't be able to follow. And then, of course, they have a whole different understanding how God came to somebody's mind. They believe in soul. Like this body is a costume, which is made of five elements, is going to perish, right? It's going to die. So why to get attached to it? And why- what is running this body? Who runs this body? Do you know?

AA: (1:25:06)
I'm guessing the soul?

VG: (1:25:08)
Right. So soul - which I was not aware of it. I mean, I hadn't read about it. So their whole philosophy is soul. And they have so much knowledge about soul itself, if you want to read about it. And even its structure- not structure, because it's just a… energy. Energy and light, and the point of light and energy, so it doesn't have a form. But it has everything else. It is like a source of energy to the body, and a master of the body to rouse the body. Without, when we die, soul leaves the body, right? Then body is dead. So it means it can’t live without soul. So what TV people are all attached and crying about the body, which doesn't have anything! Soul is the one was running it. So anyway, to me, it was very… unique knowledge. And so I started reading about it, and then how they follow, what they do, what- So they have classes every week, and, you know. They have early ritual- early morning spiritual class, where you attend that, then they have programming the evening, so I end up spending a few hours every day in that.

AA: (1:26:40)
So how do you think it has changed your life?

VG: (1:26:44)
Well, it doesn't change your life. You notice few changes, not whole life. It doesn't—It depends upon how much you strictly want to practice or follow. Yeah, it did tell you whatever happens in the body you accept it. Don't complain. Why do you complain about anything? Just go through it. Just go through it. You have to keep your own mental energies strong by power of God, that God is with you all the time. You have to have that awareness. If you don't have awareness, then it won't work. right? So if you have that, then you can face anything, and you don't have to… you don't need to cry over it, complain about it, and just face it, and do it, and don't complain. Don’t care what happen a minute ago, or five years ago, 10 years ago. So that is just a little bit part of the philosophy.

AA: (1:28:07)
I'll look it up.

VG: (1:28:08)
Look- see if you read… So this is just one thing, as I say. You get uh… a person can change. Mostly complaining, and anger. These are the two most which will help a person do work through their daily life. But less- complain less, and… no complain or no anger. If you can get to the zero state then you have accomplished something.

AA: (1:28:42)
For me, that would be a tall mountain.

VG: (1:28:46)
That’s what kind of things which they do teach. They teach you, but the rest is all you. Some people who don't understand, they don't approve of that. They say, “It's a cult. It's a cult.” You know, because they have their own uniform, they live like that - people who are devoted run the whole place. And these all- they were white saris. Have you ever seen around?

AA: (1:29:21)
No, I don't think so. Not here.

VG: (1:29:23)
Have you heard from anybody? It is so much- they have their own audio-video channel: Peace of Mind TV Channel. There is so much information about them now, and since pandemic more and more people are asking for their meditation. They believe in meditation - I didn't say that. So now there is a sister who is in charge of North American region – is based in Long Island.She has been doing an evening program for 305 days. Every night. Every night she's been doing, and they are 7 to 800 people log on Zoom.

AA: (1:30:06)
Wow. And that's something that you're participating in?

VG: (1:30:11)
Yeah, I listen to her. Yes.

AA: (1:30:15)
Wow. I’ll definitely-

VG: (1:30:16)
[inaudible] They say three hour. They say- because they do silence meditation for an hour, so sometime I sit, sometime I don’t. Because this is all faith in God. Through praising God, you do this rest of the things. Which was very new to me too, because I never thought of God before. And by reading their histories and their things, you- There are people who are seeking God, and they couldn't find anywhere. They were ready to even commit suicide. “I want to leave this world till I find God.” One doctor like that – till he reach there. Now he's in charge of the ICU unit. They have a global hospital there, for poor people, and he is in charge of ICU unit. And it happened to him in 2003. But anyway, this is [inaudible].

AA: (1:31:24)
This made all the difference.

VG: (1:31:29)
I think, at this age now – I’ll be 80 in summer – if I have time, I have something… I have an opportunity to learn something like this, so why not?

AA: (1:31:46)
Yeah. But it's… it strikes me that in my study of Hinduism, you know, you have life stages, and this is a stage of life for focusing on the spiritual.

VG: (1:32:03)
Yeah, it just happened to meet me, but then they have from children to all ages. That's- that's not- Yeah, we are aware of that, but that's not- This organization doesn't advise that.

AA: (1:32:21)
Sure. Sure. But, for you, the point you're making is, “I have the time.”

VG: (1:32:26)
[inaudible] So, that’s very true.

AA: (1:32:31)
Well, I don't want to keep you too much longer, but I do have a couple of more sort of reflection questions. And it- I love knowing about this journey, this spiritual journey, because I asked you before about God and faith, and you said, “I didn't have that when I was a child.” And now it's something that has become so important and so meaningful to you. So, in your life, do you have any regrets?

VG: (1:33:02)
Yeah, regrets are only about myself. That’s all. That I… But then again, this is the way the soul came - with these sanskars came like that. Though, one can change sanskar for the better, but I was completely ignorant. So, only thing will be, “Oh, yes. I should have done things better.” Done better, you know, things. That’s all about myself. No other regret.

AA: (1:33:44)
And what do you think is the most important thing for someone like me to understand about your story?

VG: (1:33:54)
Nothing unique. So many people, they live a life like that. I wouldn’t say anything unique.

AA: (1:34:04)
And what about for your grandchildren? What do you want them to know about your story?

VG: (1:34:15)
They can know about it, but there is nothing much to learn from it.

AA: (1:34:23)
I don't know. You talked about the change of generations, you know, and how important it is for the younger generations to see what their elders and their leaders have done.

VG: (1:34:36)
Yeah, I agree, but I think it was… As part of my personal view I'm saying, of course, from outside, yes. My all nephew nieces - they tell me that, you know, when they talk to me or write about it sometime. Because when we had… 50th wedding anniversary about three years ago.

AA: (1:35:00)
Congratulations.

VG: (1:35:02)
Yeah. And then also same year, or a year later I think. No, anniversary was in ’16, and in ’17 we were selected, or hand selected in that American Immigration Council Award in Washington DC. Yeah, they chose- There is a lawyer counsel, they call Immigration… Lawyers for Immigration Counsel- American Immigration Council of Lawyers. Something like that. Raj knows very much about it. They had approached him, and so they… he gave the information about us, and then they, I guess, read about us – our journey. So they selected us for the award as an immigrant. So we went to DC, they awarded us in 2017. So what I was going to say was that, because when something like that happens, naturally, we have so many nephews, nieces – there are, you know, dozen of them – they all write nice things, good things about it. But it's not like a, you know, personal accomplishment. It just happens in life. Things come about.

[pause]

VG: 1:36:47 I think it's a different if somebody is seeking something, or having a vision. Because somebody gave example to me—I heard on the video, this doctor, who, when they enter medical school, they were students. When they became student, the first year, they had envision – two of them, I think, or three – that I will be a dean of the school one day. Can you imagine? And they did! And he gave an example that. That you have to be so much determined, and want at it, that you want to fulfill your dream. You know, people are like that.

AA: (1:37:43)
So what message do you have for your grandchildren?

VG: (1:37:48)
I want them to be… they- on their own and be themselves. Do what they want to do. At the same time, live a very moral, simple, clean life with the good relations, and not have any jealousy or quarrels with anybody, especially in relationships, you know? Once they know what they want to do, I think they should be able to handle that. Sometimes person doesn't know what they want – what he or she wants – then they get into trouble.

AA: (1:38:48)
That's powerful advice. [laughing] I have so enjoyed speaking with you. Thank you for sharing your stories with me.

VG: (1:39:01)
You give your time. Two hours, almost.

AA: (1:39:05)
No, it’s—I love to hear the stories of my elders, and I've learned a lot about your journey and what life was like for you. So I really appreciate you being so open and sharing your story with me.

VG: (1:39:20)
Thank you.

AA: (1:39:22)
Is there anything else before I turn off the recording that you wanted to add? Anything you thought of?

VG: (1:39:33)
No. I had fun telling, actually, whatever came to my mind.

AA: (1:39:40)
Thank you.

VG: (1:39:41)
You can edit it.

AA: (1:39:45)
All right, I'll end this recording.