SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, queer, chicago, friends, aunties, feel, queer community, role models, parents, growing, friendship, white, pride, find, spaces, south asian, experiences, community, pride parade, airline

00:00
Okay, there we go. Okay, continue. Yeah. So it wasn't until 2019, that I really started to re examine my friendship group. And I think that that's not so much for me in terms of feeling good and confident about myself. And in addition to that, I've really been trying and I know this is going to be a lifetime effort for me, in really trying to walk back all of the racial biases that I grew up with all of the racial commentary that was made by people that I now realize, aren't good people. And by walking that back, I'm actually walking now in the footsteps of a lot of people from the black indigenous POC, community, Latin X community everywhere, really, and spending much more time in those spaces, not only because they're more fun, and not only because the people are just better friends and more colorful to be around. They also are just individuals that I find inspiration. And I find that contrast. And then really trying to be much more cognizant of how the stereotype of the White says presenting straight acting, you know, model, white, Christian athlete, whatever you want to call it looks like and really watching behavioral tendencies and trends and being a better judge of character. I obviously have a lot of friends that are white, but really knowing that what the community idolizes as the person you want to be friends with, and you want to date and sleep with him, whatever. Those qualities have to be much more than their appearance or their lifestyle, for me to even want to invest in a basic level of friendship with them.

02:06
And did you learn that in your 20s, just exploring the community and sort of discovering that by yourself, or did you know, those conversations that you were having in those spaces with queer people of color help facilitate that sort of relearning?

02:22
I think it's actually more broad than that. I think that not just something that applies to the queer community also applies in the workplace. Right, for sure. It applies to the gym. It applies to all areas in which we're seeing white supremacy and patriarchy taking place, right? Yeah. What are you know, there is such a thing as white fragility where you have a white woman or white male, that are trying to lean into the capitalist mentality of power and control and make tough decisions that want to please everybody, that when they are supposed to be liable for something because they're in a leadership position, they take the backseat, they will step over a dead body to get what they want. happened since the beginning of time. Now, through that, walking back exercise, and relearning and rewiring exercise, I am now starting to become a lot more perceptive of where I see it, and where the warning signs and the red flags. But I don't make the mistake in corporate America or anywhere else for that matter. Politics, following someone blindly just because just because,

03:33
yeah. And so that conversation about corporate America in the workplace is actually an amazing segue. Can you tell me more about your occupation and some of the experiences that you've had within the occupation, that field that you're in?

03:45
Yeah, so my background has been largely intact. When I started my career, I was at Accenture in Chicago. Okay. That was actually one of the brighter spots for me in terms of the coming out journey. Being able to be out at Accenture was very easy. And I felt very comfortable coming out at work without any sort of repercussion. I also started to find allies within the workplace that were great mentors, even with social friends, and then went to go work for Southwest Airlines in Dallas, and I did not realize I was taking a huge step back. He environment there as airlines just tend to be is not LGBT, for LGBTQ for. You will not find transgender individuals working at an airline so easily that are willing to talk about being transgender, and the Corporate Equality Index stuff that these airlines receive. They're all platitudes that don't really mean much to me. I don't look at them very much. The fact that I went to an airline that didn't even have a resource group for poor people, the one that they did was UNsponsored, I just thought was strange. And I was now in an environment people had Bibles on their desk. It sucks. And I was like, What is this. And when I tried to explain it to other people, including my parents, like, well, this is Texas. So I've been in an MBA program, that it was completely on the weekends working full time. Funny, that class had only seven individuals. And the two queer people in there were me and another girl who also happened to be South Asian. And I was fully out in that program. And it was everyone was really supportive and wonderful. And then through that, I got a job opportunity to come back to Chicago, working for it for now. And again, I was able to be out of work. But I could tell that even some of the senior leaders who are openly gay, were very, very hush hush about it in the workplace, they didn't really want to err on the side of daring greatly with that. White, a lot of them, not good people, and not people that I respect. So when I then moved out of the airline industry, and went back into tech and went into consulting, I've been able to be out more, and I'm able to, you know, enjoy the benefits of corporate sponsored pride related events, maybe even do some volunteering on my own. But more recently, I adopted a puppy. I'm now at a different company that, again, has wonderful Corporate Equality programs. However, I'm not doing the corporate LGBTQIA stuff as much anymore, because it's unpaid work. Yeah. And then, I also found that what I do in my day to day life, in supporting the nonprofits, and coordinating all of these events that I do took on or what have you, that's way more valuable of my time, because those organizations need me more. And I'm willing to contribute my skills and my time, my finances, to seeing those organizations continue to grow and prosper. Whereas in Corporate Equality, you know, concepts, I'm like, this is still capitalism, and I don't need to earn my paycheck for my job, right. That's not for my skin tone, not for my sexuality, and certainly not because, you know, I feel like I have to get back to that. My part.

07:22
Yeah. 100%. And I'm curious, do you think that your identities have contributed to your career or, you know, any interests that you've had in terms of occupations in any way? Or do you think that they naturally just separate in between your personal life and that corporate life?

07:42
Can you explain that question, again, I'm not sure I'm following Yeah.

07:44
So I recently spoke to just like, as an example, like a clinical psychology student, and they were talking about how they're like non binary, queer identity, push them to pursue, like clinical psychology at a young age and with an interest in like, fertility preservation, and like, you know, transgender populations. And so a lot of people I've spoken to have expressed some sort of, it's more of like an more of an undiscovered thing that people aren't consciously doing it, but they feel like their identities have pushed them sort of under the table towards a profession or any sort of career. And so I'm wondering if you experienced a similar thing, or if it was kind of different for you or something along those lines?

08:34
Yeah, I think I get what you're saying more? That's a that's an interesting question. I mean, certainly, I do believe that you need to be able to show to work to be your full self, if you can bring your full self to work. You know that that is not a good workplace. Now, some people, especially after the pandemic had said, No, I want to be better about boundary settings and bringing myself to work or not, right. It's kind of what I'm doing in terms of at least doing those extracurricular things, right. However, I think that there's also an added element that as we grow in our careers and our professions, we do acquire skill sets that whether tactical or strategic, can be applied to those industries in that line of work, like clinical psychology, and for my intensive purposes, tech is tech right tech is going to always be around it's the world that we live in, and the tech can be utilized and driven to a purpose that is indeed in line with, you know, queer activism, racial justice, racial justice, work, nonprofits, whatever you have. So I have, like I said, contributed my times and skills to some of those endeavors. Like I coordinated for example, the Pride Parade flew for Chicago. And so what I'll do is I'll utilize my tech skills to be able to do a project plan budgeting community events. That rope. So I don't think that it's necessarily gone to a purpose on a more more full time basis on on that level. But I can certainly see how Yeah, intersectionality can exist.

10:13
Yeah, for sure. Awesome. And so I want to go a little backwards chronologically, and talk about education a little bit more in your, you know, educational career. Were there any opportunities to meet other LGBTQ plus people when you were in school, or in educational settings, or even, you know, in and out of school organizations?

10:36
Not really, I didn't have one in my high school. There was one in my undergrad that was very, again, unofficial Hush, hush. undergrad was so conservative that if you were openly queer, there might as well have been a bull's eye on your back, you were just once you're out, you're out. Yeah. And that was before the apps existed. And so I've continued to hear stories about how it's still very much underground, that you know, people who use the apps will connect with each other. But it will be very, sort of off the radar offline kind of thing. Or that there is another element where some of the athletes are intimately involved with each other. But the athletes are a little bit more of a closed circle space where they won't divulge that information didn't exist in my MBA program, again, though, largely, you know, kind of running on a lean framework, because it was a working professional program. And then the other educational certifications that I pursued since then, they're about technical skills. So while there may be groups like out in tech, for example, that I signed up for, I haven't necessarily gone to those events. Again, I think they're wonderful for those who, you know, are all over the spectrum in terms of networking and doing good work. For me, I prefer it's kind of like the same with RuPaul drag race, right? I don't like to invest in having to do more than I need to, I can learn about the drag culture by going out in the Chicago bars and becoming friends with the queens and supporting their art. same vein, I can make friends with, you know, the queer community of color, are intact, and just connect with them on a much more organic basis.

12:32
Yeah, for sure. Do you think that there were any opportunities to meet other South Asians specifically or any Asian groups? Or did you just do that naturally, when you were in school,

12:43
I really did not have a chance to meet any queer South Asians until I moved to Minnesota. That was in 2014. And I met someone where we converse with who also lives in Chicago now. And when I moved back, they invited me to get together with a few queer South Asian people. And then I met like, overnight, my network of queer South Asian friends just exploded. That's what I do, and Nirala and Aneesh and all these other people that are very close to me now. And that has pivoted my friendship group to be more around those individuals. And so, you know, to answer your question, it had to happen kind of organically, and I'm very grateful that I was introduced, if someone and I do believe in the power of connection, I do believe in the power of saying, hey, I want you to meet this person, because I feel like your energies will connect. And that's a great way to, you know, help people. And I think that's one thing that queer community can do very well is just help people find higher ground when it comes to getting them to be able to relate to other people who might have, you know, a very similar upbringing or sort of journey.

13:52
And you mentioned higher ground, right. And I remember growing up a big way that I sort of captured that element of like, higher ground and other people was the role models, and I did end up idolizing quite a few people around me, especially, you know, adults, whether they were Indian or not just whether they were out was kind of the main factor in, you know, helping me sort of recognize somebody that I could relate to, did you have any role models when you were younger or older? Or, you know, famous people, even personal acquaintances that you looked up to at all?

14:26
Yeah, I've had role models, but they've come in different sizes and shapes. I can't really say like, any one particular one. You'll find that as you get older, you're gonna find mentors and mentorships and all kinds of ways, right? And so, really, it becomes about wisdom and knowledge in in grace and being able to go through the school of hard knocks and use that acquired wisdom to be able to understand someone from a more empathic perspective where, you know, they're able to tell what is going on in and how you might feel stuck, or just need someone to listen to them, or perhaps want to strategize about what proper steps to take. So, for me, like I said, I didn't have any specific one and my role models certainly evolved. And I think you're allowed to have as many role models as you want, right? Model, that's a Bollywood actor, you can have someone that is a CNN comic, or you could have someone that is the gas station, coffee attendant that you see a couple of times a week, and you've developed a personality and a connection with them that they can tell you about so much Part one was, or hair, dresser, barber, any of the above. Those who are willing to bestow the wisdom upon you and the listening manner, are the ones that you want to take those nuggets of information from, and use them as some items in your tool belts for when you're stuck.

15:55
And would you say that your friends sort of filled that role now,

16:00
I don't want my friends to feel like they have to be role models, because we're also flawed, we're also for humans. And I want them to know that I'm there for them. And I want to know that they're there for me. So I would say yes, you know, role models can evolve out of friendships. However, it's also really, really necessary and healthy, to have the just friendships that are healing and nurturing, like a niche, for example, is a very consistent regular friendship presence in my life, I think I do. And we can hang out one on one for hours, and we got each other's backs. And if one of us feels tired, and wants to go home, or the bar and go to somewhere else, we don't feel like we have to please the other person or make them feel, you know, comfortable or whatever.

16:54
Yeah, for sure.

16:55
There's just an honesty and transparency there.

16:58
Did you wish you had friendships like that when you were younger, and maybe there was more developmental stages?

17:03
We obviously wish we could have things differently in our past, yes, I would have loved to be less lonely in my childhood, but I can't I can't fix that. I can't change that. Right? I can talk about it. And sometimes when I try to talk about it in front of my parents, they don't like it because they think that I'm being ungrateful, or that adaption their parenting style. They failed. Really, though, I think it's important that as you mentioned, these these histories, we speak to them. Because you know, whether you speak to them in therapy, whether you speak to them, the you know, someone else's, it's really cathartic. And also, there's so many more people, as I've learned growing up, that had a similar upbringing or similar story, or may have been just as passionate about those obscure things that now make me really cool and unique. I mean, I bet liking the airline industry was a weird thing to do growing up, and that made me weird. And now everyone is all about travel and miles and points and, you know, being able to go on vacations. And so they actually look up to me about, you know, the glamour the industry, staying with people who may have like video games, or anime or, you know, cooking wine, whatever you name it, it's like, there's so much of this, this horrible need to conform in childhood. And that's because we don't have agency to fully make our own decisions and feel good and comfortable about that you don't have the salary to be able to pay for your own ballet lessons. If you're one of four boys in a household with, you know, very medium income and two parents that work in a blue collar type of capacity. So there's there's, there's, there's limitations on what you can do. Your only hope is that you can seek out these role models, or at least be born into a family or an environment where you have someone that advocates for you. Sadly, that is something that not a whole lot of queer people have had for a while. However, hopefully over time, not only is that changing, but it has changed with the Internet. So to answer your question, in a long way, no, I mean, I can ruminate about that. But it kind of doesn't do anybody.

19:18
Yeah. And I know that you mentioned, like the similar experiences growing up, and I found that my experience are almost exactly like yours. And I think that's a common thing that I found when holding these interviews. And I think that has definitely built a kind of a community of its own, you know, within the group that I've interviewed and within, like my own even perceptions of like the South Asian community or the queer South Asian community. And I think that's like, one of the things that kind of drives me to do these interviews in this project, because I think that I have a lot of queer South Asian friends that are my age and I've listened to you know, their stories and they're always like, I wish I knew more people like us out there, or even people who could even relate to me just a little bit more than, you know, but therapists could. And, yeah, I think like, there's such a commonality in all of these stories that I'm hearing, and I just wanted an opportunity to, you know, share them and have other people who realize that we're a lot more, you know, connected than we seem even culturally or with our identities. Totally. Yeah. And so, just about some general feelings on you know, orientation and identity and that kind of vein. I know, personally growing up, a lot of which was influenced by culture, my parents, my extended family, going to India, right, having to sort of put on a separate persona, because the aunties, you know, wouldn't perceive you the right way. That kind of vein, right. I know, that's kind of pushed me to feel a lot of things growing up, I felt limited at times, pretty depressed, I think in early high school. But it also made me feel kind of unique, because I was that one brown face and that sea of white, especially in Chicago, have you felt any specific feelings about your orientation, besides, you know, the shame and repression that we talked about, but also the pride growing up, and how those feelings sort of evolved over

21:20
time? Ya know, I think there there is definitely a challenge Crossing the Chasm, from going from home back to the Motherland back to home. Balancing how it is perceived in India, balancing, as you mentioned, the neediness, balancing the desire to be you, and then also feel like you're having to make someone else happy. That, again, is one of those things that requires a lot of unlearning and rewiring. You know, we're you're never going to be able to take down the right beyond the walls. Right? And not all aunties are bad, right? Sure. But but definitely the pervasive trope of the stereotypical auntie who basically gossips a lot or wants to make sure that you look a certain way that confirms to their standards. All these sorts of things, like part of the unlearning and rewiring process is that this is not you, this is them, right? This is not this is all their own, internalized. It's very hard to use that as Arsenal when you're feeling completely shut down. The thing is, is that aunties, not all aunties, a lot of aunties do this to everybody. I mean, aunties will make their own parents cry without batting an eye. Right. So, I think that there's also some importance and normalizing the conversation around misbehaving aunties and when aunties misbehave, and I've even had to scold my own parents recently to be like, You guys need to stop this behavior. This Mean Girls kind of behavior where you guys are acting bitchier and pedicures than the meanest of the meanest, white gay that I've ever met in the bars. You need to stop this because I have higher standards of you. If you want me to uphold the values that you always talk about, that you've upon me, this is me having to be the adult here and say, No, I will not pull up. So and so's Instagram account so that you can look through their photos and make nasty comments about how lewd you think they look. That's not our business, it is not our job. And I have way more important things to do and talk. So a lot of it, you know, kind of requires stepping up and being more brave and having those difficult conversations. And doing it in a way that doesn't seem like you know, they're I mean, it's horrible, horrible, just doing it in a very, you know, neutral tone to the point, power pose be like, please stop doing this. It's not comfortable. Yeah, for sure.

24:26
Do you think holding those conversations now makes you feel proud? Or what are some things that make you feel proud? I know, pride is, you know, obviously a big part of our community.

24:36
I feel I would feel more proud if my parents would listen to that advice and act on it. Right? I mean, for me having that kind of conversation now. That's kind of part of my so yes, I feel proud in the sense that I now have the voice where I can do that without it turning into an explosion. But the real goal of that is for them to start to do their own work, right. There's a lot of people in the upper generation that do not believe in doing the work They use the cop ad excuse to say, Oh, the younger generation. Oh, you know, we weren't raised with that kind of thing. Oh, and it's like, no, you're you're just a cop out. Here's excuses to continue on behavior. And let me just tell you, auntie, Uncle datememe, whoever, by you holding on to that kind of behavior, you're only manifesting your own sadness. You're only stewing in your own unhappiness. And when you put it in that frame of light, they actually oftentimes do take a step back and be like, You know what, you're right. It actually doesn't make me feel good about myself for anyone else to be talking shit or to be shamed like that point. I mean, that's really exciting conversations start to happen. When you say that, this is not a generational thing. This is a human decency. Right?

25:52
Yeah. Awesome. And thank you for speaking about that. I wanted to circle back actually, I feel like I missed a section. So we were talking about, you know, Chicago, in that bar scene earlier. And also your work with organizing the Pride Parade and the flow in the Pride Parade. Can you tell me know more about your experience organizing the flow and with the pride parade, and just generally the queer community in Chicago?

26:18
Yeah, so I was in Chicago during the summer of 2019, I'd have I'd left a really bad job situation. And I found Chicago and I made a lot of DC friends. And I had the ability to coordinate the flow for the break, or the entry. It was really simple. I simply emailed the commissioners in Chicago, they said, Yep, we have space for nonprofits. started fundraising. We have a DJ Nothern was amazing, and then decked it all out. And, again, use my technical skills to kind of make that happen. And it was one of the most fun experiences of my life, then Demick happens. So we didn't get to do it for two more years. And over that time, you know, continue to, you know, accumulate more of AC friends, but also be able to learn more about the DC drag scene, then, I was able to convince them to allow me to coordinate it again for this year, but they wanted to do a float, which meant more money, I somehow found a quote from Ohio, we created T shirts, we did the whole thing again, and it was it was beautiful. It was and I think that the queer community in Chicago is one of the best. I think that the intersectionality of many different diverse groups of people is certainly hear people talk about Chicago being super white and segregated and all that. I think that that's not entirely true. I think that it just prepares people to work a little harder on finding where those spaces exist. And a lot of those spaces do exist in one to exist in a more underground kind of capacity. So that it doesn't get overtaken by white presidents and, you know, like corporate stuff, or become all about the circuit parties. And so, I also have found that the one place where I can find the most diverse group of individuals, that is free, that is loved. And that is super nourishing is the beach, the queer Beach, Hollywood Beach, does not only doesn't have the sand, the sun, the water, the pier, it also has a park area, right? So people can do bonfires and camping. Nature's healing, like having the ability to be in a place where, you know, there's just the ability for anyone in the city to get there. That's where That's where they can all come together.

28:55
Yeah, for sure. And I think you just did an amazing job of sort of introducing a next question that I had. And so a question I've been asking all the people I've been interviewing is, what are some places of notable personal value or interest to you as both or either pure person or a South Asian person? I know, Anish, yesterday talked a lot about the Belmont rocks and what that historic area had, you know, was representative of the queer community in the 70s. Even and how he got kind of a kinship to that. Are there any other places that sort of speak to your identity or your experiences in Chicago?

29:35
Yeah, the beach, the beach doesn't mean the beach is a place where I get to meet all my friends, I get to meet different types of people from different communities. People I go to the gym with play volleyball with Noah from the queer Arab dance group scene with I mean, like all different types and a lot of these bars events that take place I go with my other POC queer friends. So I just I have, I have made sure that I'm much more plugged in, and I'm aware of what is out there. You know, I'm not big into using social media to see what other people do using social media to find out what's going on, so that I can get excited for something different. One of the things about the Pride Parade this year that was a little bit tough was, you know, as much fun as I was having. And as successfully as it was, I was looking around and, you know, Roe v. Wade had just been returned two days before. And I'm like, Look, this is great, all this love that we're surrounded by. I feel like, I'm still mad. I feel like I'm still angry. And I also felt like, well, it's good that pride now has straight people bringing their families or, you know, there's less of the mess in terms of, you know, people just getting effed up on the streets. Yeah, there's a lot more corporate presence. There's this whole weird thing with the cops. And a lot of people are actually at the Southside Pride festival, because they have said that they want to be part of the non capitalist pride. So they have Trumpy tech, which is like, you know, kind of music style, there's North pride. And now they have pride in the park. So watch it in park. So I'm like, okay, so this parade is really one little piece of this. And how much of this piece? I mean, it's great that we have the South Asian representation, how much of this kind of feels like you no more just fluff, right? Yeah. So the question that I would rather ask myself is, how can we do more, that makes it even more revolutionary, and really starts to enact some, some real change. But that stuff happens at a grassroots level, it doesn't take place over, you know, the course of the night, it has to be gradual. So a lot of what I do now is remind myself, even if you start to feel like you're kind of going out to the same bars, and the same places to see the same kinds of people. The reality is, there's actually community within that that is still really diverse and different and cool and unique. And, above all, if you find that the queer people are the people of color, are the most interesting people to hang out with. Why not? Why oh, feel like you have to go to Wrigleyville bars, and you know, that you have to, you know, pay $40 for unlimited drink wristband at some place. I mean, unless it's a real, you know, event that would be worth your time, there's no reason to feel obligated to do, right.

33:06
And would you say that you feel that you belong in Chicago? How would you, you know, categorize a sense of acceptance, or freedom or any sort of feelings like that? Like, do you feel that you made the right decision coming here from, you know, Philadelphia, or Dallas, or Minnesota or any of those places?

33:21
So I feel like Chicago is definitely in the best fit for me. And my plan is to stay with them. With with Chicago, really. So it is basically a I think, permanent state for me, at least for the time being. But the world is uncertain. So I have to just see where where that. Gotcha. Unfortunately, I am running kind of low on time, and we'll need to wrap up soon. Yeah, no worries. So if there's any other like, critical questions you want to ask, by all means?

34:06
Yeah, I just had one more question actually. Okay, great. Awesome. Yeah. So if you could give any advice to young South Asian, LGBTQ plus people, what would you say? Yeah,

34:15
I would say number one. Number one, continue to be you don't stop being you. It is the greatest strength, resource skill that you have. Whatever anyone tells you, no matter what people want to do, no matter how much control you may think they have over you, never stopping you. Awesome. Thank yourself if you do that, and part of not stopping you means don't be afraid to do the work. Don't be afraid to put yourself out there. Don't be afraid to connect with other people. Don't be afraid to trust queer people or South Asian people, even if you've had bad experiences with either groups, because a lot of the harm reduction work is, again, unlearning rewiring about what we may have been taught growing up. A lot of us were not taught to trust other queer people we thought, you know, the groomers are predators. And same with reasons, right? You know, there's a lot of gossip and a lot of pressure. And we're taught to not trust aunties, uncles or even their kids, their parents learn everything or whatever. With the queer South Asian community, I think that there's a much greater space of love and acceptance and privacy and respect for that. So don't be afraid to trust and then be a great new cool.

35:43
Awesome. With that being my last question, did you have any other questions or topics that you wanted to cover before? You know, we wrap up?

35:55
No, I really appreciate you creating this for me and I would love to know how it goes moving forward with the individuals you need any contact information from them, just let me know.

36:07
Yeah. Oh, for sure. Thank you so much for putting those names in the chat. And I will definitely reach out to you with the you know, next steps for me what I'm doing with this data and things like that.

36:18
Sounds good. Thanks so much.

36:19
Yeah, have your day. Bye bye.